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Old 08-20-2015, 06:19 AM
Bianchip37 Bianchip37 is offline
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Default Audiophile dap, waste of money ?

Hello everyone

I become an audiophile 3 years ago and i can ear difference between flac and mp3 . I have a Fiio x5 that cost 350 euro and sansa clip+ that cost 50 euro. The Fiio x5 have better build quality, better screen, better amp, internal Dac, better storage and hi res audio than sansa clip+ but when i ear the same track in lossless on sansa clip+ and on Fiio x5 i don't ear difference, for me Eq of Sansa is identical to sq of Fiio x5 and i'm hungry, for you the Audiophile dap are waste of money ? ( only Sq and audio comparison
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Old 08-20-2015, 07:33 AM
skip252 skip252 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bianchip37 View Post
...but when i ear the same track in lossless on sansa clip+ and on Fiio x5 i don't ear difference...
You've answered your question right there if sound quality is your only concern. What anyone else thinks doesn't matter if you can't hear a difference.
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Old 08-20-2015, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Bianchip37 View Post
Hello everyone

I become an audiophile 3 years ago and i can ear difference between flac and mp3 . I have a Fiio x5 that cost 350 euro and sansa clip+ that cost 50 euro. The Fiio x5 have better build quality, better screen, better amp, internal Dac, better storage and hi res audio than sansa clip+ but when i ear the same track in lossless on sansa clip+ and on Fiio x5 i don't ear difference, for me Eq of Sansa is identical to sq of Fiio x5 and i'm hungry, for you the Audiophile dap are waste of money ? ( only Sq and audio comparison

You contradict yourself in your opening statement, so lets clarify this.

When you say you can hear the difference, what and how do you claim this to be? What equipment and set up are you using? Have u tried the abx testing? Can you verify your results time and time again?

To my knowledge no one has yet scored a successful score on abx testing (repeated testing) to be able to claim that they can tell the difference between FLAC and mp3. Anyone who claims to be able to tell a difference is not really able to justify it (scientifically), it is simply left as an opinion (and of course which we know opinions can be both right and wrong).

The current 'Hi res' audiophile/boutique market of DAPs all seem to have a common theme, they are jam packed with 'desktop like' power hungry components that may very well drive all sorts of headphones better but at the expense of battery life.

When comparing (for example) a Sansa clip+ vs a Fiio X5 it is a little unfair in the sense that the fiio is practically packing a portable amp along with it's source, depending upon what kind of headphones you pair between the two it would not be surprising if the Fiio sounds better. Perhaps a more balanced and fair comparison might be a Sansa Clip paired with a portable amp of some kind then vs a Fiio X5.
In the above example I would imagine a Fiio X5 to be able to better drive more stubborn headphones and therefore also attain potentially louder volume than what the clip+ can put out alone. There is strong evidence to support that loudness = perceived better sound, when in fact both sources could be identical, it's just louder appears better.

Those around here that know me know I like my music very loud (possibly dangerously so...)
I will be the first to admit that these 'boutique' DAPs may very well give me a placebo like effect of sounding better, simply because they tend to go louder than other smaller DAPs I own (at least 2 boutique DAPs I own do..)

I do (after all) like to mp3gain my music collection to around 90db, and that can significantly lower the volume of many tracks (as much as -10db), so clips and Cowons (DSPs not on) can tend to sound quieter than ideal. Whereas my AP100 and Alien Shozy can still attain crazy volume with said mp3 gained files... this I think may account to a lot of my own perceived 'higher sound quality' statements.


You might also expect the Fiio's to output a cleaner signal with less background noise/hiss (due to internal components etc), so if that matters to you, the Fiio does sound better, at least from a hiss perspective.

It is of my opinion that these DAPs provide the High Res argument some backing, not because Hi Res sounds better, just that the DAPs driving headphones might be better capable (than smaller stand alone DAPs).

For example, if yer the kinda guy that hates stacking a mp3 player with an amp (such as Clip+ to a fiio amp of some sort) then a Fiio X3/X5 is more like an 'all in one' solution perhaps. When people continue to amp a X3/X5 I think we're getting a little silly here (at least from a portability perspective) but hey that's just me...

Then again... I have heard some claim that they cannot tell the difference between High res and regular 320kbps mp3 files, but when they use a certain DAP it becomes more apparent the difference... sounds bs to me but there u go...
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:54 PM
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You contradict yourself in your opening statement, so lets clarify this.
Actually, Bianchip37 does not contradict himself/herself. The first claim is that he/she can distinguishing MP3 files from lossless files. That is probably true for some MP3 files, and untrue for others.

The second claim is that he/she does not distinguishing between sansa clip+ and on Fiio x5 when listening to lossless files on them. There is really no contradiction between his/her two claims. Both can be true at the same time.


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Originally Posted by BruceBanner View Post
To my knowledge no one has yet scored a successful score on abx testing (repeated testing) to be able to claim that they can tell the difference between FLAC and mp3. Anyone who claims to be able to tell a difference is not really able to justify it (scientifically), it is simply left as an opinion (and of course which we know opinions can be both right and wrong).
I think that you are wrong on this. First of all, even with good MP3 encoders, when going under 128kbps files, they fast become easily ABXable for most people. You probably meant MP3 files with the highest possible bit rates or quality. Here there still is some ambiguity: There are many encoders and not all do a good job. (Blade, for an example, was a terrible encoder.)

But this is nitpicking because you probably meant that the highest quality MP3 files from the best encoders are indistinguishable from FLAC files. I would agree here that, according to all listening tests, it is true for the great majority of people. But I would not agree that it is true for everyone.

From what I remember, there was one person on the Hydrogenaudio forum that could, for example, distinguish even the highest bit rate Vorbis files from lossless files (Guruboolez was his handle, if I remember correctly) - with successful ABX results backing him. I don't remember if he could ABX the highest bitrate MP3 files from lossless files but I would bet that there are people that can do it. They are people that are sensitive to certain weaknesses of some lossy codecs so that even throwing all available bits won't throw them off. MP3 has some limitations, so I would guess that it can't be totally transparent to all people. I found this from "greynol" on Hydrogenaudio:

Quote:
It seems that if you're particularly sensitive to pre-echo then just about anything with hard transients won't be transparent with mp3, even at 320kbits.
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Old 08-20-2015, 08:55 PM
skip252 skip252 is offline
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The way I think is it's best to avoid absolutes. For me that means that a flat declartion that a person can easily distinguish between between lossless and a perceptually encoded file at a quality level that should be transparent should be taken with a grain of salt. I make that a large grain if the person doesn't include the conditions they used to determine their ability to hear a difference.

Sighted evaluations have been shown to be unreliable. The simplest way to put it is if you know which type file is playing your mind will use that information to determine if there's a perceptible difference. People who have been absolutely certain they could hear a difference have failed to hear that difference when the knowledge of which file was playing was hidden from them.

A relatively small difference in volume level has been reliably shown to be heard by most people. If a person hasn't matched volumes when determining if they could hear a difference it's nearly certain the difference they heard was due to a volume mismatch.

As Sleep mode zZ has pointed out it's best to avoid the flat declaration that it's not possible to hear a difference between the original lossless file and one that's been encoded even with the best known encoder. Due to the limitations of perceptual encoding every encoder has it's killer samples that trips it up. There's been a lot of work put into them to reduce the number of times an encoder can't fully encode those samples but they still exist. With that being the case saying that there's no one that can ABX the files a particular encoder produces against the lossless source just isn't true. While it may be unlikely there's still the possibility that someone can tell them apart so I think in terms of as unlikely but possible.

I've seen enough online squabbles started over saying this encoder when used at that quality setting produces files that can't be ABXed from the original that I just don't say that. That's why I helped write the FLAC or MP3? piece linked in my sig. Providing the person that says they can hear the difference a means to use controlled testing to check that claim for themselves is the best way I could think of to avoid getting drawn into those squabbles. As we wrote there:
Quote:
No one is trying to tell you what files to use under any circumstances. You should use the files that suit your purposes best.
Then we did the best we could to provide a way to determine which files work best for each individual using their ears and equipment.

I made sure the part I quoted was included to not have to engage in endless discussions with the the person that was saying they could hear a difference that always ended with "I know what I hear!!!!". TBH I'm more than a little surprised it's worked as well as it has.

When someone shows up making the claim they can easily hear the difference between lossless and MP3, I refer them to my sig. So far I've had zero responses after that. Guess there's something about performing controlled testing that breaks keyboards.

Or it might be that the difference the person was hearing went away once the playing field was leveled between the files.
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Old 08-20-2015, 09:07 PM
skip252 skip252 is offline
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I'm going to take the liberty to double post and quote myself from a previous post about whether or not "audiophile daps" are worth what the sellers want.
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Whether or not something is worth it is in the eyes of the purchaser to me. Since I know that there can't be an audible improvement for me my answer would be the same as musichound, there's absolutely no reason for me to waste my hard earned cash on advertising claims that make no sense for my situation.

"My situation" is the operative part of that. I've checked my hearing and have done the research to know that all the hype surrounding lossless playback and higher sample rates and bit depths doesn't make the difference, if any, audible to me. If someone cares to spend this type of money to try to hear something that almost certainly can be achieved at a fraction of the price, that's up to them. I won't be joining them.

Besides I get a good laugh from reading posts other places by the over financed and under-researched folks who equate higher cost with better audio fidelity. I've found that doesn't necessarily hold true for me but I'm not paying for what they buy so I may as well get some entertainment value from the circus that surrounds these boutique players.
What I said then still applies as my hearing hasn't magically improved since then so my thoughts from then still apply.

The TL;DR version is that they aren't worth it for me but if anyone decides they like what one brings to the table they should get one and enjoy it. Just don't send me the bill.
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Old 08-22-2015, 09:38 PM
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Actually, Bianchip37 does not contradict himself/herself. The first claim is that he/she can distinguishing MP3 files from lossless files. That is probably true for some MP3 files, and untrue for others.

The second claim is that he/she does not distinguishing between sansa clip+ and on Fiio x5 when listening to lossless files on them. There is really no contradiction between his/her two claims. Both can be true at the same time.




I think that you are wrong on this. First of all, even with good MP3 encoders, when going under 128kbps files, they fast become easily ABXable for most people. You probably meant MP3 files with the highest possible bit rates or quality. Here there still is some ambiguity: There are many encoders and not all do a good job. (Blade, for an example, was a terrible encoder.)

But this is nitpicking because you probably meant that the highest quality MP3 files from the best encoders are indistinguishable from FLAC files. I would agree here that, according to all listening tests, it is true for the great majority of people. But I would not agree that it is true for everyone.

From what I remember, there was one person on the Hydrogenaudio forum that could, for example, distinguish even the highest bit rate Vorbis files from lossless files (Guruboolez was his handle, if I remember correctly) - with successful ABX results backing him. I don't remember if he could ABX the highest bitrate MP3 files from lossless files but I would bet that there are people that can do it. They are people that are sensitive to certain weaknesses of some lossy codecs so that even throwing all available bits won't throw them off. MP3 has some limitations, so I would guess that it can't be totally transparent to all people. I found this from "greynol" on Hydrogenaudio:
Ah yes, my bad, I read that wrong. And yes yer nitpicking, course I meant 320 and not 64kbps files! lol

Quote:
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The TL;DR version is that they aren't worth it for me but if anyone decides they like what one brings to the table they should get one and enjoy it. Just don't send me the bill.
Ok, so we're all kinda in agreement re: Hi Res being very questionable, but what about the other side of 'Audiophile/Boutique' DAPs, namely the components/parts etc.
Do none of you accept (hi res files aside) that these DAPs can have an appeal or advantage that other lesser audiophile DAPs have?

I have bought 2 'Audiophile' DAPs so far (Alien Shozy and AP100) and the one absolute clear thing that sets them apart from my Cowons and Sansa's is the transparent black background, the lack of hiss, the lack of actually any kind of sound (even with high volume) that alert you to the fact the device is even on!
With the Sansa's and Cowons i get bumps and clicks (from powering on) and then background hiss in menus and NPS.

So i would argue that if hiss matters to you, that alone is a worthy consideration for Audiophine DAPs.

But what about their ability to drive headphones better? Are we honestly saying that the Sansa Clip is just as capable as a Fiio X5 for driving some cans?
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Old 08-23-2015, 05:33 AM
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Do none of you accept (hi res files aside) that these DAPs can have an appeal or advantage that other lesser audiophile DAPs have?
Audiophile digital-audio players might have an advantage for those individuals that like listening at extremely high volumes. But because I dislike listening at extremely high volumes, I cannot hear any hiss from my ordinary digital-audio players. And my headphones are sensitive enough so as not to require a higher voltage from an audiophile digital-audio player.
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Old 08-23-2015, 07:57 AM
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But it's not just about volume surely... that extra power will better drive certain cans etc and therefore if a user is set on using 'x' headphone then the boutique DAP offers a better combination?
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Old 08-23-2015, 09:08 AM
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But it's not just about volume surely... that extra power will better drive certain cans etc and therefore if a user is set on using 'x' headphone then the boutique DAP offers a better combination?
Let us assume that a pair of headphones is sensitive enough for a digital-audio player—i.e., it is loud enough. Why will extra voltage “better drive” the headphones? And what are the other advantages of this extra voltage, assuming, again, that there is already sufficient voltage to drive the headphones to a loud-enough level.
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Old 08-23-2015, 09:26 AM
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Did u answer my question with a question? lol

Well... that's why I'm asking.

When I owned a pair of Superlux HD668B Cans, if connected straight to PC they sounded pretty naff. Then I used them connected to the Fiio E7, this improved the sound substantially. But when I finally used them in conjunction with the Fiio E9 + E7 USB DAC combo the difference was night and day, finally I was hearing the HD668B's as intended.

Now I am more than willing to admit my ignorance in this matter, but all I know is a pair of headphones that I now own (Samson SR950's, very similar to the HD668B's) sound better once being connected to sources that drive them better. They sound worse connected straight into a clip+, better connected to a AP100 and finally better still when connected to the Fiio E9+E7 combo.

So I'm asking (not claiming) that perhaps the larger power hungry 'desktop component' boutique audiophile DAPs that exist in the market are better able to make certain headphones 'sing' better than other sources due to a similar experience I have had with my above scenario.

To my ears the improvements weren't purely volume related but acoustic differences, Bass was coming through thicker and fuller sounding, not as tinny and restrained etc.
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Old 08-23-2015, 11:41 AM
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To my ears the improvements weren't purely volume related but acoustic differences, Bass was coming through thicker and fuller sounding, not as tinny and restrained etc.
But would not enabling a bass-boost function or using an equalizer do pretty much the same thing but at a much lower cost?
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Old 08-23-2015, 12:02 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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I have a Fiio x5 that cost 350 euro and sansa clip+ that cost 50 euro. The Fiio x5 have better build quality, better screen, better amp, internal Dac, better storage and hi res audio than sansa clip+ but when i ear the same track in lossless on sansa clip+ and on Fiio x5 i don't ear difference, for me Eq of Sansa is identical to sq of Fiio x5 and i'm hungry, for you the Audiophile dap are waste of money ?
The main advantage the fiio has is that it can drive headphones a lot louder than the Clip (or most portable players). If you have headphones that need this, its very nice to have. If your headphones don't require those levels, then its a waste of money.
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Old 08-23-2015, 12:03 PM
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To my ears the improvements weren't purely volume related but acoustic differences, Bass was coming through thicker and fuller sounding, not as tinny and restrained etc.
People hear increased volume as more bass, less volume as more tinny. So if you describe a louder device as having more bass, I'd point out that this is because its louder

Match the volumes and they'll both have the same bass.
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Old 08-23-2015, 12:25 PM
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The main advantage the fiio has is that it can drive headphones a lot louder than the Clip (or most portable players). If you have headphones that need this, its very nice to have. If your headphones don't require those levels, then its a waste of money.
I agree
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Old 08-23-2015, 12:41 PM
Bianchip37 Bianchip37 is offline
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I do not understand why in anythingbutipod the Sansa clip+ is considerated one of the best Sounding dap (i agree) and on Head fi all people think "if cost more sound better" yesterday i view the Astell & kern jr for "only 699 usd" and the other Astell & kern are over 1000 usd why in this forum nobody have A&K,Fiio, Hifiman and other audiophile boutique dap and on Head fi there is more interest of these dap ?
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Old 08-23-2015, 01:06 PM
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I do not understand why in anythingbutipod the Sansa clip+ is considerated one of the best Sounding dap (i agree) and on Head fi all people think "if cost more sound better" yesterday i view the Astell & kern jr for "only 699 usd" and the other Astell & kern are over 1000 usd why in this forum nobody have A&K,Fiio, Hifiman and other audiophile boutique dap and on Head fi there is more interest of these dap ?
Headfi has some knowledgable people, but very few of them post about audio players. The quality of the information there is very low, so you tend to get a lot of crap.
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Old 08-23-2015, 04:39 PM
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People hear increased volume as more bass, less volume as more tinny. So if you describe a louder device as having more bass, I'd point out that this is because its louder

Match the volumes and they'll both have the same bass.

Yes I would agree with that for the most part, I have made similar claims in this very post.

WHat I am getting at tho is..

With headphones the 'frequency response' is not always flat, some sound colder, more analytical, some warmer, bassier etc.

Is it not true to say that if the headphone in question is not being driven properly then the sound signature does not sound the same at 30% of it's capability compared to being 'given what it is needed' at 90%?

Are we 100% certain it is purely volume related and therefore any differences in sound style is purely placebo related to the fact that because more volume is possible it now sounds better vs the possibility that now that the headphone is connected to a better amp <even at playback of lower volumes> it simply sounds better and every aspect of the headphone is performing as should (treble, bass and all of the frequencies being driven as should)?

The latter was how I perceived it in my above scenario but I am willing to accept 'the loudness war' was at play here...

What I guess I'm really getting at is if the Frequency Response of headphones is fixed regardless of volume, or whether it changes etc?

I mean... I know my Soundmagic A10 amp for example is slightly V Shaped, it makes different headphones sound better or worse depending upon what it's connected to. So amps can change things...
I don't really know if headphones have a frequency response per se, but of course they sound different from one another...
Combining a certain headphone with a certain source (and amp) can really change the sound signature (no eq in play here).

If you connect certain headphones with the Sansa clip and then use the same on the Fiio X5 then perhaps the amp section of the Fiio X5 is 'colured' different to Sansa's, so any perceived difference in sound signature is not necessarily purely from power but amp style?
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Old 08-23-2015, 08:42 PM
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I mean... I know my Soundmagic A10 amp for example is slightly V Shaped, it makes different headphones sound better or worse depending upon what it's connected to.
Measured frequency response?
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Old 08-23-2015, 09:04 PM
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Measured frequency response?
Yeh, I can't recall where I saw it but it's around sumwhere.

EDIT: Here it is;



Taken from here.
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