Iriver questions and need some MP3 player recommendations

[Baltowolf]

So, I have an old 2nd gen iPod Nano which I got from someone I know for free, which is good 'cause I'm never buying an iPod ever, can't say again because I never bought one. :P Anyway, I'm a musician and big on audio, so I'm really looking for a high quality audio player, video doesn't matter as much to me, but I'd like to have something with a screen that I can watch videos on if I want to. I've been looking all over the place, I thought Creative at first and really like the X-Fi 2 but they seem to have pulled an Apple with it and made a really bad move and killed a great touch screen player for a 1 inch piece of crap, and prices went up insanely, so I think that's out of the question now. I've been looking at Iriver now and decided the E300 is definitely the player for me, but I have one concern, I really like touch controls like the click wheel or touch screens because they're quicker since you can swipe or scroll through things quick, so I've had quite a few doubts about the E300s speed when it comes to navigating the menus fast, so I have a couple questions about the E300:

How fast is navigating the menu? Can you hold down the buttons or do you have to press each individually?

How many bands is the custom EQ?

Is the speaker good? It doesn't have to be great, I have a cheap pair of speakers with the built in lights from Target, I don't need overly good quality audio from speakers, for my real audio listening I use headphones or my earbuds, but is the speaker good enough to actually hear your music and can it get loud?

Also, with the SD card does it show up in the main library or is there a different menu? This doesn't matter to much to me, but I'd like to know.

That's the only questions I have regarding the E300, I've also seen some other players though, the Archos 35 Vision looks like another perfect player to me, but I heard it has sorting issues, is this true? Is it possible to organize your music alphabetically on it?

So, here's a list of features I really want and the other info you guys say to add:

• Location Broome County, New York.
• Budget: 0-$100 preferably less than 90.
• Use: Audio, needs good quality and EQ presets that are good and/or a 3+ band custom EQ. I listen to more rock and metal stuff and also contemporary Christian and worship, so I need something that doesn't over-exaggerate bass like Dr. Dre's crap seems to. :P I'd like to be able to watch videos too.
• Type/Design: PMP made for more audio than video.
• Features: Gapless, MSC/MTP, EQ, user EQ, sound enhancements would be nice, like how the X-Fi 2 has the expand and crystalizer, USB, FM radio tuner, video, built-in microphone, line input would be good to have too, but I don't need it, built in speaker
• Display: 2.4" minimum.
• UI/Controls: More of a combination. I prefer touch to tactile. The only thing I like about iPods is the UI and the click wheel, so something similar would be good. I love the original Sansa Fuze for this reason, but wish it had a bigger screen. If physical volume buttons it needs to be in small increments, I like how my brother's Fuze+ manages the volume. The reason for this is because I plug my iPod into my amp so I need to be able to hear the music and myself. This another reason I like touch, it's sensitive.
• Battery life: 12+ hours-ish.
• Memory: 8GB+ and needs SD expansion, it's a key feature I want.

So, yeah, that's basically what I want. Thanks! :P I'm leaning more towards the Iriver, but I'm open to suggestions. I'd be set on a Spinn but the lack of SD is a real bummer. Thanks again!

[CrowdAds]

[The DarkSide]

I personally think you need to check out either a clip+, clipzip, or the fuze (NOT the fuze+). I think any of those will bring a wonderful SQ smile to your face. Especially since all 3 are under $100, and all 3 can be Rockboxed if you decide to do so in the future.

[Baltowolf]

Well, the problem is I don't like the clip series. Granted, the Clip Zip is WAAAAY better than the original clip, I always hated the colors of the old Clip, but maybe if I run out of space or need a spare I'll get one of them. I agree about the Fuze though, just really wish it had a bigger screen. :P I think I'm pretty sold on the E300 though, even if my questions aren't answered, so far it seems like the only player I really like. Plus Iriver's a good company it sounds like, and the E300 seems more tailored to what I want it for.

[The DarkSide]

iriver is a *FAIL* nowadays, and you won't get gapless, a microphone, and a few other features at that price point. Go check out the Cowon C2, it's might be more in line with what you want.

[kredig]

for the price of the e300 i would defenetly go for a different player. the e300 is not gaplass (as said) and only offers 8gb internal storage.
with the clip zip has the same storage as the e300 (max 8gb + 32gb external) and a much better sound quality (gapbless). with a clip zip (8gb) and a 32gb microsd card you are at only 90$ atm. that's the best you can get atm probably.
or as also said, you should look for the cowon c2 . it's a bit more pricey (was down at 130$) but defenetly worth it. this player has every recommentdations you want

[Baltowolf]

Again, as I said, the Clip is NOT what I want, it's too small, I want a screen bigger than one inch at least. I've never been a fan of the CLip series as I've said, maybe for an extra yeah, but not as a main player. Also, the E300 supports 32GB SDs too. But, if it's not gapless I guess that's out of the water. Apparently no one can make good players with decent screens these days... So, would you guys recommend a Fuze+? It's the only thing I can think of with the screen I want that I think I'd like, plus my brother has one so I know I don't hate the controls, but I'm not the biggest fan either. I'd be ok with it. Is the original Fuze supported still? SO basically, are we looking at just Sandisk essentially? At this price point it appears so.

Yeah... I know about Cowon, best non-iPod players around it sounds like, I'm a huge fan of their designs I've seen, just, not the prices. :P I'll probably have a Cowon in the future, but right now I need something cheaper.

Oh, and, my brother said because it's flash it should be hard to notice, how much of a gap are we talking? Like, is it noticeable? If you have one and you notice it can you time it. Thanks.

[skip252]

The storage medium, flash or HDD, doesn't have anything to do with gapless playback. How the information is read and used by the player is what's important. HDD based players that are set up for gapless playback do it every bit as well as flashed based players.

"True" gapless playback happens the player reads the gapless information supplied by some files and eliminates the silences between tracks based on that information. Not every codec supplies that information. FhG encoded mp3s don't and LAME encoded files do, is one example.

"Guess ahead" type gapless is when the player guesses where one track ends and the other starts and eliminates silences based on those guesses. It's usually right and results in no gaps or a small click or pause between tracks. Most often it's hard to notice unless you're listening for it. Sansas and Zunes do guess ahead and if you're not used to true gapless playback it's pretty good most of the time.

When there's no attempt at gapless playback the tracks may play seamlessly or there may be significant gaps. That's very much a YMMV situation.

My Sonys will sometimes play for hours with no gaps or very small clicks between tracks. Then in the middle of a live mix that should be gapless they might have several seconds of silence. To me that's the most distracting.

When the music is rolling along then stops when I know it shouldn't my first thought is something's wrong. I reach for the player, get it out of my pocket and...the music starts up again. Frustrating.

I don't have a iRiver so I don't know which of those it might be. There's times when someone says guess ahead gapless is the same as not having gapless at all. If they could clear up if it's guess ahead or no attempt at gapless that would give you a better idea of what to expect.

[Baltowolf]

Ok, so, I think I might just get a Sansa Fuze (original.). Does the Fuze have gapless? Or at least seemingly? Or as good as the 2nd Gen iPod Nano? That's what I have. Not sure what it is. :P Fuze has a click wheel and all that so I know I'd love the controls, and I already do 'cause I've used them in Best Buy before. But, does it have gapless? I've read in previous firmware it didn't but Rockbox does I know. Thanks.

[skip252]

The Sandisk firmware on the Fuze does guess ahead gapless. It's decent to the point where some of the early reports were that it was true gapless. With more tests it was determined that it was close but there are very small clicks between tracks sometimes. I sometimes noticed them when I used the Sansa firmware but I usually had to be specifically listening for them. I don't know how that matches up against the Nano, never owned one.

Rockbox has true gapless as long as the gapless information is supplied by the files. All my files I use on my Rockboxed players are either LAME encoded mp3s or ogg vorbis. They all play with no gaps in Rockbox. Rockbox gapless is done right IMO. If I heard a gap in Rockbox I would check my files to find what was wrong.

[Baltowolf]

Ok, so, does the Iriver E300 preload the next track at all? After some info from my brother apparently this is the real issue, gapless sounds like a gimmick kind of term really, since it's, after research, apparently nonexistent in lossless formats, so, does the E300 preload songs? Like if my song is 3 minutes long and it ends right at the 3 minute mark and the next song starts at 0 does it automatically play that song? Or if I'm listening to a live CD will I hear no silence between tracks? Thanks. :P

[The DarkSide]

Originally Posted by Baltowolf

Ok, so, does the Iriver E300 preload the next track at all? After some info from my brother apparently this is the real issue, gapless sounds like a gimmick kind of term really, since it's, after research, apparently nonexistent in lossless formats, so, does the E300 preload songs? Like if my song is 3 minutes long and it ends right at the 3 minute mark and the next song starts at 0 does it automatically play that song? Or if I'm listening to a live CD will I hear no silence between tracks? Thanks. :P

OK,...just where did you guys get your info on lossless formats NOT being gapless, let alone gapless being a gimmick??? iriver isn't gapless,and iriver is horrible as a brand nowadays - the same as the once excellent Creative. Sandisk makes a few gapless players now, as well as the iPods and Cowon - all do GAPLESS quite well. A live album is seamless, and a club mix goes on without missing a beat.

I think your brother needs to really get his info correct, because he's misinforming you bro,... And I don't think we'd waste your time by blowing smoke up your rear-end telling you BS.

[Baltowolf]

Well, no offense, but I don't trust people who just go blowing certain brands out of the water like you're doing with Creative and Iriver with no reason besides that you apparently don't like them. Why does Iriver suck? Why is Creative bad?

Anyways, about lossless: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gapless...Format_support "Since lossless data compression excludes the possibility of the introduction of padding, all lossless audio file formats are inherently gapless." and, unless otherwise stated, nothing I say is what my brother says, I'll say if he did.

And, I say it sounds more like a gimmick since it's a software thing and if a player pre-loads the first few seconds of a song it's essentially "gapless" or if it instantly plays the next track as recorded, silence and all, then it's technically "gapless" but it sounds to me based on Skip's explanation that instantly playing a next song isn't "true" gapless playback. So to me it sounds like a gimmick based on my current understanding of gapless playback as Skip said it.

So, Darkside, on the original Fuze firmware will it play songs seamlessly as soon as one ends with silence, or what? And does the Iriver include silence at the end and beginning of tracks? Does it interrupt live CDs with silence between songs?

[The DarkSide]

I don't really know,... Go check Wikipedia and let me know, while I hate on iriver & creative in a dark corner someplace. Enjoy,...since no one else seems interested in doing so ATM.

[Marvin the Martian]

Originally Posted by Baltowolf

on the original Fuze firmware will it play songs seamlessly as soon as one ends with silence, or what?

Nope, it is definitely not seamless with the original SanDisk firmware on it...you'd need Rockbox to cure that problem.

[Baltowolf]

So there's a slight pause between tracks?

Wow, Darkside you're pretty... interesting... although, seems like I'll be getting a fuze at this rate. It's got a click wheel and video capability, if I wanted to watch videos. So, does the Fuze integrate SD card contents into the library?

[skip252]

I'm not sure how what you posted could be interpreted as meaning that lossless encoding isn't gapless

in·her·ent

Definition of INHERENT
: involved in the constitution or essential character of something : belonging by nature or habit : intrinsic <risks inherent in the venture>
— in·her·ent·ly adverb

To say it a bit more simply that means that the essential character of lossless encoding is gapless.

Your question as to how the Fuze operates was answered here

The Sandisk firmware on the Fuze does guess ahead gapless. It's decent to the point where some of the early reports were that it was true gapless. With more tests it was determined that it was close but there are very small clicks between tracks sometimes. I sometimes noticed them when I used the Sansa firmware but I usually had to be specifically listening for them.

I'm not sure what part of that was unclear.

[Baltowolf]

I meant lossless is gapless.

Not sure why I asked again. :P Forgot about that I guess. So, I take it you guys recommend the Fuze? How many bands is the EQ on it? Thanks again...

[FreeZ5]

Originally Posted by Baltowolf

Not sure why I asked again. :P Forgot about that I guess. So, I take it you guys recommend the Fuze? How many bands is the EQ on it? Thanks again...

Since you're new here, I'll point out that the original Sansa Fuze is well liked. But it was discontinued Sept 2010 (or so), so can be a bit hard to find. The new Sansa Fuze+ (or Fuze Plus) is not well-liked.

The EQ on the original firmware for the original Fuze is not as good as what is available if the Fuze is Rockbox'd.

OOPS...left out that the original firmware EQ has 5 bands. Don't know abour Rockbox.

Steve

[Baltowolf]

Thanks. :P Yeah, I know all about the Fuze+, my brother has one, I don't like the controls that much, not as quick as a click wheel either. I think if you want touch just get a touch screen.

Well, Amazon still has a bunch it looks like, at about 80 bucks for the 8 Gig so. If I get one I'll most likely Rockbox it, since Rockbox apparently has true gapless and appears better all around. Does the Fuze integrate SD contents into the main library, or does it have it's own folder? Does Rockbox? Thanks.

[skip252]

The Fuze integrates the external and internal memories nicely. When you browse the library the files on the external memory have a icon next to them indicating their location but they are all accessible. It's difficult to create playlists that include files from both locations. It can be done but they don't usually last through the database refresh.

Rockbox has both a file browser and a database to view the files. The file browser sees the contents of the card and internal memory separately but they are all accessible. The database is a seamless view of both locations. Playlists that play in Rockbox can be made with files from both locations.