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  #21  
Old 11-14-2011, 12:23 PM
skip252 skip252 is offline
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The Extended tags window can be used to create or eliminate tags. Like you I was more than a bit surprised to find tags missing or in place I didn't know were there. I had used so many different applications and had files from so many sources across the years I had no idea where all the extra stuff had come from.

The ones from the earliest times when I was using Windows Media Player as a ripper were really, really bad. I found all types of extraneous junk. Some of the shareware rippers I had tried were even worse. There were entire ads in completely unrelated fields. I had one complete album lose 1 1/2 MB just by cleaning up the tags.

Now I may get files from other sources but I always rewrite the tags. I usually use foobar2000 and just wipe all the tags after I copy the tags in the Properties menu. Even then I use Mp3tag to cross check the results. It's was only a couple of times but there were small discrepancies that caused me to have duplicates.
Code:
Album\Artist\Track#. Track
sorts differently than
Code:
Album\Artist\Track# - Track
Took me weeks to clean it all out but I found the saved time in database refresh times and crashes was well worth it.

Bad tags can definitely cause crashes on portable devices. The same file that plays fine on your PC will choke the lesser power on a DAP easily.

I've found tags that made no sense to me. Length is frequently written as a tag. I've no idea where that comes from but I found eliminating it helped speed things considerably. Except for the addition of Album Artist tag I use the folder\file system Enigmatic describes here. I've never got my time down to what others have but it's made things manageable.
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  #22  
Old 11-14-2011, 12:30 PM
Carson Dyle Carson Dyle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JK98 View Post
Perhaps the album artist tag is what is giving such long refresh times? Since the Sandisk players don't support it, you should remove it. Also remove the embedded album art.
If you think that you may some day use Rockbox, I'd recommend keeping the album artist tags (TPE2 frames). I find that it's nicer being able to browse by album artist, which is a list much smaller than artists due to artists that appear on compilation CDs.

I have a hard time believing that having just a few unused frames in the ID3v2 is such a refresh killer. They'd simply be ignored if they aren't recognized. I'd avoid having a lot of them, as some rippers add, but I doubt that a couple extra have much impact on refresh times. It's large data blocks like embedded artwork, lyrics, and comments that should be avoided most.
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  #23  
Old 11-14-2011, 12:52 PM
skip252 skip252 is offline
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I don't think anyone really knows what the Sandisk database refresh tries to read or can ignore. Whatever it is seems to be deeply affected by which tags you have or don't.

I also keep the Album Artist tag for convenience in Rockbox. It seems to only have a marginal effect on refresh time and makes navigating the database much simpler.

Last edited by skip252; 11-20-2011 at 07:48 AM.
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  #24  
Old 11-14-2011, 12:57 PM
Tronix Tronix is offline
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I have the same problem. 1 hour refreshing.
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  #25  
Old 11-14-2011, 06:42 PM
rrfpacker rrfpacker is offline
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I'll take all the suggestions to heart, but it just looks like I've got a Clip that has a long refresh time. I've basically taken out everything and the refresh time is 80-90 minutes. I'll learn to deal with it. I have a Creative Zen, whose refresh time is much less, and if I'm in the position where I need to change sd card often I'll just use it.
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  #26  
Old 11-16-2011, 03:13 AM
Tronix Tronix is offline
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Found something.
If all music files (4000 songs) are placed in one folder, refreshing time will lasts an hour. If all files are placed in folders (for example /artist/album/), refreshing time is about 20 minutes.
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  #27  
Old 11-16-2011, 09:45 AM
Mikerman Mikerman is offline
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That's interesting. Most of my music is CDs, each in its own folder, and I get that lower refresh time.
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  #28  
Old 11-16-2011, 09:56 AM
skip252 skip252 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tronix View Post
Found something.
If all music files (4000 songs) are placed in one folder, refreshing time will lasts an hour. If all files are placed in folders (for example /artist/album/), refreshing time is about 20 minutes.
Not surprising. It's been mentioned more than once in this and multiple other threads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skip252 View Post
Except for the addition of Album Artist tag I use the folder\file system Enigmatic describes here. I've never got my time down to what others have but it's made things manageable.
The Sandisk database refresh method on the older Clips has real problems with a folder structure that doesn't fit a particular pattern. When it tries to read a different structure it either slows to a crawl or just skips items.
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  #29  
Old 11-16-2011, 12:33 PM
JK98 JK98 is offline
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Of course one would expect a longer refresh rate if it has to do major sorting when it does a refresh. If all the songs are in a folder by artist, then a subforder for each album, I would imagine there would be minimal sorting when a database refresh is done.
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  #30  
Old 11-16-2011, 12:49 PM
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Marvin the Martian Marvin the Martian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JK98 View Post
Of course one would expect a longer refresh rate if it has to do major sorting when it does a refresh. If all the songs are in a folder by artist, then a subfolder for each album, I would imagine there would be minimal sorting when a database refresh is done.
That is precisely how I have mine set up.
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  #31  
Old 11-19-2011, 04:32 PM
rrfpacker rrfpacker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tronix View Post
Found something.
If all music files (4000 songs) are placed in one folder, refreshing time will lasts an hour. If all files are placed in folders (for example /artist/album/), refreshing time is about 20 minutes.
Thank you for this. Right now there are three folders, with one of the folders having 5 more. When I have time I'll try to make more folders and go from there. I'm guessing I'll have to learn a bit more about this (using a mask of some sort, right) as I don't want to make 500 different folders. Plus I'll have to get real proficient at making playlists on the card as that was what the three folders were for.

I'll report on progress.
Thanks.
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  #32  
Old 11-20-2011, 07:00 AM
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marc2003 marc2003 is offline
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i just tested my 8GB clip+ / 16GB sandisk micro SHDC card with just over 2000 files and it took 3m35s.

i thought that refresh time was terrible but after reading this thread i guess i'm one of the lucky ones.

here's a break down of how my files are tagged:


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  #33  
Old 11-20-2011, 01:13 PM
rrfpacker rrfpacker is offline
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Marc,

Well I guess your post answers the question about whether the tags need to be cleaned up, NO. Yours look a lot like mine.

Here's an update to my situation; erased all folders from my 16g card, started Media Monkey and found the Sansa External Memory in the library tree, configured a sync to the card with about 20 playlists, and synced. Wow, sync went flawlessly and I have playlists on the card!! The only weird thing is that some of the artist folders have a nomenclature in front that I did not put there. Such as 12E80000_Bob Seger and the Album inside is 13E 80000_Best of Bob Seger.

Refresh time is down to 25 minutes.
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  #34  
Old 11-20-2011, 11:59 PM
Mikerman Mikerman is offline
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Is your USB setting set to MTP mode (or Auto)? Those settings can foul up file names. Starting over and switching to MSC mode can avoid this issue. And best not to have a mix of both MTP mode and MSC mode files on your player, as your computer only can see the files that were transferred over in the USB mode that the computer then is connected to the player under.
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  #35  
Old 11-21-2011, 09:19 AM
rosti rosti is offline
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have you tried a full format of the SD card? could be incorrectly formatted (wrong block size)

should be FAT32, block size of 8kb for an 8gb card, 16kb for 16gb.

you can do it in windows by right clicking on the SDcard when it is plugged in (should be able to do it through the sandisk clip) then clicking "format". make sure you UNcheck the "quick format" box.
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  #36  
Old 11-21-2011, 01:04 PM
skip252 skip252 is offline
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You really want to disregard this. It's no doubt well intentioned but it's not very helpful in this situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosti View Post
have you tried a full format of the SD card? could be incorrectly formatted (wrong block size)

should be FAT32, block size of 8kb for an 8gb card, 16kb for 16gb.

you can do it in windows by right clicking on the SDcard when it is plugged in (should be able to do it through the sandisk clip) then clicking "format". make sure you UNcheck the "quick format" box.
Formatting the card is unlikely to produce any significant increase in speed as long as there's no corruption on the disk. You can use Window's disk checking facility to check for that. You don't want to use Windows to format the card if it ever becomes necessary.

I never use Windows inbuilt format utility to format SD memory. I use the SDFormatter issued by the SD Association instead. There's no setup besides choosing quick or full formatting. The formatter detects the card's parameters and sets everything for optimum performance. The quick setting erases the card and sets it for optimum performance.

Formatting will use up a portion of the large but finite write cycles on the card so it's best to avoid formatting if there's no need. You don't swat gnats with a sledge hammer. I use the formatter when I first get a card or player. After that I check the file structure using the Windows utility or chkdsk if I suspect corruption on the card.
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  #37  
Old 11-21-2011, 08:17 PM
rrfpacker rrfpacker is offline
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Skip252,

I'd already asked someone much more knowledgeable than me if I should reformat and they said no need. I will take your suggestions about the formatter, though, since the sd cards are now much more valuable to me with the playlists showing up.

Thanks to all, it's been a learning experience and I like my Clip+ better today than two weeks ago.
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  #38  
Old 11-21-2011, 08:45 PM
skip252 skip252 is offline
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Rereading my post I can't see how you concluded I was advising you to format anything
Quote:
if it ever becomes necessary
Is the most important part of that post to me. I'm the one that said
Quote:
Formatting the card is unlikely to produce any significant increase in speed as long as there's no corruption on the disk.
Quote:
Formatting will use up a portion of the large but finite write cycles on the card so it's best to avoid formatting if there's no need.
Quote:
You don't swat gnats with a sledge hammer.
remember? Formatting is the sledge hammer I was telling you to avoid.

If I put SD memory into service without formatting it I'm not going to go back and format it later for the heck of it.
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  #39  
Old 11-22-2011, 12:12 PM
rrfpacker rrfpacker is offline
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Skip,

I think I understood everything you said and have taken it to heart. Concerning the formatter I was referencing this part of your post.

"I use the formatter when I first get a card or player."

I took that to mean that when you get a new card, you use this to format it and then never do it again unless as you say it is necessary and not for the heck of it. Did I misunderstand?

Thank you for being patient.
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  #40  
Old 11-22-2011, 01:39 PM
skip252 skip252 is offline
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No misunderstandings there. I think the words may have been a bit confused but we're both understanding what we meant by them now. Don't format unless you have to, but if you do use the right tool.

Using the SDFormatter the way I do falls into being a personal preference. I *think* I've seen a performance increase but I haven't had any way to confirm that so I won't swear that actually occurs. I can understand a reluctance when all someone has is anecdotal evidence that's no stronger than that.

If you're skeptical at all I'd follow the advice of your friend. Use them as the manufacturer provides them and don't worry about a possible performance increase that may or may not come from additional formatting.
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