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  #21  
Old 07-07-2011, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by skip252 View Post
The manual is here. From the questions you're asking you don't seem to have read it. I strongly recommend that you read at least thru The Main Menu. Rockbox is different from th OF in that you really need to read the manual in order to take advantage of it's potential. Just pushing buttons and guessing will lead you up some blind alleys that are easily avoided if you've done the need reading.
Definitely do this. There's a lot of features in RockBox, and a lot of things that most newbies don't understand. The manual does a fantastic job explaining it and it's a good place to direct your attention. Though, I will say the jargon can sometimes be difficult to power through.

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  #22  
Old 07-07-2011, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Marvin the Martian View Post
Actually, it doesn't. What it does, is make a big difference in the amount of sound adjustment you can do, with the parametric EQ, adjustable stereo width, crossfeeding, etc. But with all that stuff disabled, it shouldn't sound any different.
a lot of people equate those two. it leads to much confusion. the quality of the output is the same but the adjustment is increased with the rockbox. same with cowon players. the SQ flat is as good as a few others but the BBE effects allow for greater customization so you end up with something closer to what you enjoy. I ahve argued that issue before and I basically just came to the conclusion that "quality" can be misinterpreted.
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  #23  
Old 07-07-2011, 11:54 AM
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I will take a look at the manual, thanks.
What do you think about my second question about the Home button?
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  #24  
Old 07-07-2011, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skip252 View Post
The manual is here. From the questions you're asking you don't seem to have read it. I strongly recommend that you read at least thru The Main Menu. Rockbox is different from th OF in that you really need to read the manual in order to take advantage of it's potential. Just pushing buttons and guessing will lead you up some blind alleys that are easily avoided if you've done the need reading.

@TimYoungYou would need to submit RMAA results that are contrary to those all ready in place for that to believed by anyone that really knows about Rockbox. All other testing that has been done says that within human hearing the base sound quality in Rockbox and the OF are the same. People who know how to conduct both ABX testing in hardware and A/B volume matched testing have reached the same conclusion.

When you make that claim it helps reinforce the mistaken belief that Rockbox somehow is able to improve the excellent sound quality of the Clip+. You may believe that but until you can present subjective evidence for that claim that statement should be considered a placebo effect for you.
lol. No I don't have to submit anything. I tried the Clip+ as it came and I thought it was rubbish but when I Rockboxed it and it was a night and day difference in SQ.

I don't understand or actually care about the science behind it but I can sure hear it.

No it wasn't my imagination because the difference was so big. I don't particularly care to provide evidence that the sky is blue either because someone tells me it really isn't. I rather you prove that I have hearing loss or better that you don't have hearing problems and have the clip+ and tried it out yourself. :P
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  #25  
Old 07-07-2011, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Marvin the Martian View Post
Actually, it doesn't. What it does, is make a big difference in the amount of sound adjustment you can do, with the parametric EQ, adjustable stereo width, crossfeeding, etc. But with all that stuff disabled, it shouldn't sound any different.
Actually it does. It did on my one.

When I first tried out my Clip+ I was well disappointed with the player. Then when I rockedboxed it, the difference was night and day.

I can't remember whether I messed around with the EQ but I pretty sure I didn't.

I don't understand the science behind it but I certainly trust my ears.
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  #26  
Old 07-07-2011, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by TimYoung View Post
Actually it does. It did on my one.

When I first tried out my Clip+ I was well disappointed with the player. Then when I rockedboxed it, the difference was night and day.

I can't remember whether I messed around with the EQ but I pretty sure I didn't.

I don't understand the science behind it but I certainly trust my ears.
"Pretty sure you didn't" mess with the EQ.....this alone makes your claim a bit suspect.....did you or didn't you?

Do you have more than one Clip+? If not, you can't make these comparisons without relying on your memory of the sound, and that could certainly be suspect.

I used to have two Clip+, and I compared them back-to-back, simply switching earphones from one to the other, as opposed to having to shut down and reboot the player like you must have.

The placebo effect that skip mentioned is very common. When I first Rockboxed mine, I thought the same thing as you....that it instantly sounded better. The mind is a powerful thing...I wanted to believe that a magical switch had been flipped. But the hardware did not change, after all.

I have customized settings in mine for several different headphones, and I also have one set of headphones that doesn't need any EQ. So I can use the player with every headphone I own and enjoy it...so I'll never use the player without Rockbox again unless I am testing something.

But software alone will not turn a Kia into a Ferrari, to use a car analogy.
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  #27  
Old 07-07-2011, 12:42 PM
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I see that a lot of people reading this thread own Clip+, so I'll ask again: is it normal for the paint on the Home button to rub off? Unfortunately I can't upload, my camera doesn't want to focus on such small thing.
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  #28  
Old 07-07-2011, 12:52 PM
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I see that a lot of people reading this thread own Clip+, so I'll ask again: is it normal for the paint on the Home button to rub off? Unfortunately I can't upload, my camera doesn't want to focus on such small thing.
Does it look like mine? (click to expand)
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File Type: jpg DSCN0197.jpg (30.4 KB, 21 views)
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  #29  
Old 07-07-2011, 01:05 PM
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I didn't say there was an absolute requirement to post objective evidence. I said,
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to believed by anyone that really knows about Rockbox
You can say anything you care. That doesn't make it accurate except to you. There is a body of repeatable evidence that says there's no difference. Your ears can be affected by any number of subjective phenomena that makes them much less reliable. Placebo has been proven to be very powerful when it comes to audio quality. Rockbox is different so it's better, right?

I've seen too many times when someone has spent time and money chasing a fantasy because of a subjective claim like yours. You keep repeating it, I'll keep asking for objective proof until you come up with something more than "I certainly trust my ears". That way anyone else that reads your posts will know there is a question about the accuracy of your claim. Please understand there's absolutely nothing personal, just what I believe is needed to prevent any misunderstanding in the future.

Considering the number of people that have questioned what you said since you made your claim there's little chance of that happening now.
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  #30  
Old 07-07-2011, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin the Martian View Post
"Pretty sure you didn't" mess with the EQ.....this alone makes your claim a bit suspect.....did you or didn't you?

Do you have more than one Clip+? If not, you can't make these comparisons without relying on your memory of the sound, and that could certainly be suspect.

I used to have two Clip+, and I compared them back-to-back, simply switching earphones from one to the other, as opposed to having to shut down and reboot the player like you must have.

The placebo effect that skip mentioned is very common. When I first Rockboxed mine, I thought the same thing as you....that it instantly sounded better. The mind is a powerful thing...I wanted to believe that a magical switch had been flipped. But the hardware did not change, after all.

I have customized settings in mine for several different headphones, and I also have one set of headphones that doesn't need any EQ. So I can use the player with every headphone I own and enjoy it...so I'll never use the player without Rockbox again unless I am testing something.

But software alone will not turn a Kia into a Ferrari, to use a car analogy.
:/ I put that in so hoping you would use it as a way out of avoiding this unnecessary argument. Like,

You: 'Well it probably is because you did change your eq so that is why'

Me: Yeah, maybe that is why.

*end of argument*

Obviously, it didn't work. :P

If you really want to know, I didn't mess with the eq. I have one Clip+ and although I do not have an extra one like you, it does not invalidate my opinion. I do know what placebo effect is but as I have said the difference was so big that I can categorically rule it out.

I remember specifically because when I first got my Clip+ and heard it, I was going to chuck it in the bin straight away since it sounded so awful to me. Then I thought before I chuck it away, I will try rockbox it. The SQ was night and day and saved my Clip+ from going in the bin. I tried it without rockbox again to see if there was this huge SQ difference and was surprised there was so much difference. I did not expect it.

Now I dunno whether when I installed it, it might have set a default EQ changes or whatever that was behind the change. I am not a techie just a user. But there was a huge difference that saved my Clip+ from going in the bin to me loving it.

I would add I use my Ultrasone headphone when I was trying it and it is known for been analytical and its clarity so maybe why I found a huge difference whereas if I had use some cheapo 10 headphone, I might not have heard any difference.

Whatever the reason, it is there.
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  #31  
Old 07-07-2011, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skip252 View Post
I didn't say there was an absolute requirement to post objective evidence. I said, You can say anything you care. That doesn't make it accurate except to you. There is a body of repeatable evidence that says there's no difference. Your ears can be affected by any number of subjective phenomena that makes them much less reliable. Placebo has been proven to be very powerful when it comes to audio quality. Rockbox is different so it's better, right?

I've seen too many times when someone has spent time and money chasing a fantasy because of a subjective claim like yours. You keep repeating it, I'll keep asking for objective proof until you come up with something more than "I certainly trust my ears". That way anyone else that reads your posts will know there is a question about the accuracy of your claim. Please understand there's absolutely nothing personal, just what I believe is needed to prevent any misunderstanding in the future.

Considering the number of people that have questioned what you said since you made your claim there's little chance of that happening now.
I didn't know I am suppose to provide evidence for the things I write on an internet forum. lol

Before you go any further with your placebo effect, I just want to say when I tried rockbox, I did not have much expectation for what it does. The only thing I knew about rockbox was that everybody keep saying to install it and i had not expected a huge SQ difference. For placebo effect to work, I actually need to have an expectation that it would improve the SQ a lot. I didn't and why I was so surprise that it did.

If you want to prove definitively that there is no difference than you are the one that needs to provide the 'body of evidence'.

In case you did not know, rockbox is free so I am not sure why you are kicking such a fuss about it. It is not really a big deal to me.

I had only said it once and I didn't know you had a chip on your shoulders about it. It is my opinion, take it or leave it. I am not here to prove to people nor would to buy extra Clip+ for some scientific experiment for a bunch of people on an internet forum. lol Taking things way too seriously here. :P
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  #32  
Old 07-07-2011, 02:35 PM
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Sharing accurate information should be the goal here don't you think?. You provided advice that you can't prove to be accurate as though it were a fact. It's been questioned and anyone that cares to research can decide for themselves whether what you have said can be taken seriously.

There's been enough questions raised and posts by members other than me that what you have said would be questioned and researched by a person in search of accurate information. That's all that's really needed for now.
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  #33  
Old 07-07-2011, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Marvin the Martian View Post
Does it look like mine? (click to expand)
I can't really see the Home button.. But does it still have the shiny paint on it or is it more like the Directional buttons?
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  #34  
Old 07-07-2011, 03:23 PM
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I won't say you can or can't hear rabbits fucking.

One thing I will say is brain burn in.

If you think you can hear a difference then you do.
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  #35  
Old 07-07-2011, 03:30 PM
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this thread sucks now, BTW. I thought I was on head-fi for a minute, had to double check the address. I have read debates like this so many times and it always ends the same way...

OP: FU

responder: No, FU

can we skip to the FUs and go back to enjoying our music? or maybe we can discuss the SQ improvements of repalcement cabling, or maybe the sonic variances between lossless codecs and which is better for portable use. Oh, I know, can someone do a head to head on a colorfly and a hifiman? Are dual wolfsons twice as good or is there an incremental rate of diminishing returns?
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  #36  
Old 07-07-2011, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draggy View Post
I can't really see the Home button.. But does it still have the shiny paint on it or is it more like the Directional buttons?
Looking at mine the results are inconsistent. It seems the different colors have different amount of shine on the Home button. None of mine came new and TBH when I first got them I never noticed the home button much so what I'm seeing might not mean much.

I've looked at my wife's black one and the home button is not quite as dull as the finish on the click wheel but definitely not a bright gloss. The blue one has a medium shine and the purple has a bright gloss finish. They've all been used quite a bit so it's hard to say if that's the cause of the difference. However when I clean them up and look closely it doesn't seem the finish is damaged just different degrees of gloss. Does the finish on your home button seem chipped or scratched in any way?

It's also possible that a newer model might be built to a slightly different standard. Sansa will say that models with very different hardware are the same as long as they give the same performance. I know this doesn't help a lot with your new one but it's all I've got. Maybe someone else could relate what they see?
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  #37  
Old 07-07-2011, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Draggy View Post
I can't really see the Home button.. But does it still have the shiny paint on it or is it more like the Directional buttons?
It's more shiny like the rest of the front than the directional square is.
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  #38  
Old 07-08-2011, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Marvin the Martian View Post
It's more shiny like the rest of the front than the directional square is.
+1 The home button has a glossier finish.

Regarding the need for IEMs, i bought some pl21 today, reviews say it's like the pl30 but with good bass. Impatiently waiting now.

I was going to spend 50 on some brainwavz M2, but the preorder offer ended abruptly and the price went back to U$S 60.

So i decided to spend small, until a good offer comes my way, I'm in argentina, and there are a lot of restrictions on where to buy online, shipping is expensive and many sites don't offer shipping at all (Amazon, i'm talking bout you).
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  #39  
Old 07-08-2011, 01:37 AM
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Originally Posted by skip252 View Post
Sharing accurate information should be the goal here don't you think?. You provided advice that you can't prove to be accurate as though it were a fact. It's been questioned and anyone that cares to research can decide for themselves whether what you have said can be taken seriously.

There's been enough questions raised and posts by members other than me that what you have said would be questioned and researched by a person in search of accurate information. That's all that's really needed for now.
Yeah, and I am sharing my information that rockbox makes a big SQ difference.

I am providing an opinion not scientific fact. If you have scientific fact to back up your statement that post it here to back it up rather than saying it. You are claiming it is a fact it makes no difference and I don't agree because I hear the difference.

There has been enough people recommending Rockbox and so many people saying to install it far far more then the few of you in this thread that suggest it makes no difference.

I don't even get what your problem is with it when it is free. If you don't like it or you think it makes no difference than don't install it. Geez.
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  #40  
Old 07-08-2011, 02:27 AM
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Yeah, and I am sharing my information that rockbox makes a big SQ difference.

I am providing an opinion not scientific fact. If you have scientific fact to back up your statement that post it here to back it up rather than saying it. You are claiming it is a fact it makes no difference and I don't agree because I hear the difference.

There has been enough people recommending Rockbox and so many people saying to install it far far more then the few of you in this thread that suggest it makes no difference.

I don't even get what your problem is with it when it is free. If you don't like it or you think it makes no difference than don't install it. Geez.
You are totally misunderstanding our stance on Rockbox. Skip and I are two of the biggest fans of Rockbox here....we've both had it on multiple players, and recommend it often to people. We certainly don't have a problem with it.


As far as your thinking Rockbox alone makes the player sound better, without using any of its sound tweaks.....there are people that think the opposite, that it made the player sound worse. I think the forum member "Paleskin" was the one that brought that up here recently. Maybe you should look for his thread and read that?
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