'Phones or amp for wider soundstage?

[Neutrino]

Hi,

I'm using a Zen Vision:M and I was browsing around for tips a new pair of phones for under £100 (UK). I've never auditioned a DAC/amp but now I'm wondering whether it's worth allocating more to my budget to cover a budget amp and spending a little less on phones (e.g. for £150-£200 combined).

The things I most prize are depth and spaciousness. Good as my Zen is (I bought it after a direct A/B comparison with an ipod 6G), I feel the soundstage is still closed in and flat compared to old school analogue. I've come to accept this as a limitation of digital players, but I'd love to know if it can be remedied.

I tend to listen with a neutral EQ. I would sacrifice detail, neutrality, super-duper bass effects etc for a deep, spacious sound.

I read the thread 'What Can Portable Amps Accomplish?', but am still unsure whether I'm more likely to achieve this allocating budget towards an amp as well as phones.

Thanks for any advice on which way to head.....

[CrowdAds]

[zefhar]

Dang, I was about to ask advice on this too, let's wait for the experts

[WalkGood]

I would look at buying the best phones you can afford rather than shorting your headphone budget for an amp that may or may not improve any perceived soundstage. IMHO portable amps do not magically add soundstage rather you will notice a greater degree of improvement with better headphones. Once you decide on the right phones for you, you should also experiment with different tips which may or may not help your soundstage perception.

[jupitreas]

You might want to consider using direct driver IEMs like the Sennheiser IE8 or Hippo VB. They are generally known to have wider soundstages than their balanced armature counterparts (particularly the IE8). I do believe it is within your budget.

[Enigmatic]

Originally Posted by Neutrino

I would sacrifice detail, neutrality, super-duper bass effects etc for a deep, spacious sound.

Only 20 dB of channel separation is required for typical music.

[lestatar]

Interesting topic - I too am curious as to what more enlightened minds think on this subject. I personally never thought an amp [especially a portable one] could create a wider soundstage - I always believed that the 'phones [i.e. home speakers] were the most directly responsible for this area [discounting stuff like digital processing, etc...]

[Satellite_6]

I don't know about portable amps but my amp has quite a positive affect on soundstage with either the HD 485's or HD 650's.

[WalkGood]

Originally Posted by Satellite_6

I don't know about portable amps but my amp has quite a positive affect on soundstage with either the HD 485's or HD 650's.

I’m not sure that’s due to your amp, IMO the amp just drives them better or more efficiently unless you are using a tube amp which may make them sound warmer. As you know the OP was talking about iem’s or phones for portable use with his Vision-M and not full sized headphones like your sennheiser’s. It’s not a fair comparison, full size “open style” headphones like the hd650’s have much better soundstage (width and depth of sound) and sound more natural than most iem's on the market.

[Jack4L]

Well something with a crossfeed might be what your looking for, the only reason I got my Corda 2Move is because of the crossfeed that allows me to enjoy my headphones more on older tracks that have too much stereo separation.

[Marvin the Martian]

Originally Posted by Jack4L

Well something with a crossfeed might be what your looking for, the only reason I got my Corda 2Move is because of the crossfeed that allows me to enjoy my headphones more on older tracks that have too much stereo separation.

That would be the opposite of wider soundstage, wouldn't it?

[Jack4L]

Well it gives you the sense that the music is being played in front of you, instead of around you with certain older tracks. Which is how most people were going to play music back in the day, but now with headphones it kinda feels weird without the crossfeed.

[WalkGood]

Originally Posted by Jack4L

... it kinda feels weird without the crossfeed.

That Meier crossfeed is good stuff, sounds like you're addicted

[Satellite_6]

Amps definitely affect soundstage, and crossfeed sounds funny. . . but for IEMs, yeah don't bother. . .

[Marvin the Martian]

Originally Posted by Satellite_6

Amps definitely affect soundstage, and crossfeed sounds funny. . . but for IEMs, yeah don't bother. . .

I tried the Rockbox crossfeed and I didn't like it at all. Listening to older tunes, like Jack4L mentioned, I tried Hendrix's Electric Ladyland with the crossfeed and I thought it ruined it. I tried a couple of dfkt's builds with the Meier variants, and the one didn't seem like it was doing anything, and the other still seemed like it was collapsing the soundstage, although without the muffled sound from the default Rockbox setting. So from that point on, I am crossfeed free.
If others like it, that's cool, but it's not for me.

[Jack4L]

An amp wont effect soundstage for me personally. If the source is good, an amp wont add anything to it, it shouldn't. Unless the source has a way to bypass its inner circuitry and replace it with the amps. In which case it'll maybe add sensitivity, lower crosstalk, and all that other stuff. I honestly have to confess that I have never really grasped much onto what "soundstage" really is. Its really hard to explain, and its even harder to really listen to/for it in music. I think most people just consider "how far" a sound feels like it travels consititutes a good soundstage but honestly these days, you can do all sorts of audio magic to make stuff sound expansive. Look at what Ultrasone was doing with its s-logic stuff.

While I'm not going to dispute wheter or not "Soundstage" really exsists and can be measured with a yard stick, I will say that there are more tangible things to consider when thinking of how that sound is going to come out, and what you might want it to sound like.

[Satellite_6]

Detail is more important for sure, but soundstage is nice to have to get the music out of your head! It certainly exists, and as far as amping goes I think the extra power can make hard to drive headphones perform better in this area, although head-fiers take this to an extreme and claim amps can make all sorts of magical differences.

For me crossfeed was nice for about five minutes until it started sounding weird. The one I tried made the vocals on the HD 650's sound too distant. . .

[Neutrino]

I'm beginning to see things are not as straightforward as I thought!

In terms of amps, don't some also combine a DAC? In which case, they're doing a whole lot more than just boosting the signal? I just remember being very disappointed when I bought the ipod 6G, and then reading about the fact that they'd changed the DAC after 5.5G to an inferior chip.

This would be my first pair of IEMs, as all previous pairs have been over/on the ear. Although I'm not sure I would spend the whole budget on a pair of phones, so the Sennheiser IE8s look a bit costly. If I'm not thinking about a budget amp too then I'd like to keep things under £100.

I know I need to have a bit more of a think, all this digital malarkey is a bit new to me.....

Thanks for all the replies.

[lestatar]

^ lol...Welcome to ABi Neutrino...Things seldom are straightforward are they, especially as you learn more

maybe the truth is somewhere in between, especially with regards to this sort of stuff on portables.

[WalkGood]

Originally Posted by Neutrino

… In terms of amps, don't some also combine a DAC? In which case, they're doing a whole lot more than just boosting the signal? …

Yes some portable amps do have DAC’s but AFAIK you can not bypass the one inside your Vision:M so you could only use it to bypass the sound card on your pc or laptop. FWIW most players headphone out is as good or in some cases better than a LOD so an amp with a DAC is not needed in your case. Now there’s probably going to be as many opinions on them too but basically a DAC is a chip or device (for example Wolfson WM8740) that converts a digital code to an analog signal.

In closing and without knowing your iem requirements other than budget, you might want to take a look at the phonak audio PFE as they have good soundstage and are in your budget, regardless take a look at dfkt’s list here for more options …

Edit: BTW I was going to recommend you try to find the Panasonic RP-HJE900s but I’ve read they’re hard to find now and the price has gone up substantially but check to see if you can still find them at a good price.

[Neutrino]

Right, I've had a good look around and done some more research. This turns out to have changed my ideas completely.

What I'm thinking now is doing things in two phases: first get either the Soundmagic PL30/50 or the ViSang RO3 phones. See what it does to open up my Zen.

Secondly, depending on results, try either a Sansa Clip+, Fuze+ or Sony S545. Do a direct comparison with my Zen - if outperformed I'll put the Zen out to seed. From everything I've read, both the Sansa players are rated highly for SQ. The S545 it seems also has a very spacious soundstage (at least according to one or two reviews I read). I might have to live with lower capacity, although the SD cards on the Sansas are a bonus.

All of these combos would be within my budget and I can't help but feel it might be wise to try a different source, rather than spending it all on a pair of IEMs like the Phonaks. From what I gather, the Zen is known for sounding quite closed in. Funny, I missed that when I was originally looking to buy (it just sounded better than the iPod and I didn't have the chance to audition other players).

Plus it would be nice to be able to use iTunes again after the difficulties in syncing the Zen on a mac - I think I should be ok with any of those players on the mac.

@lestatar - "Things seldom are straightforward are they, especially as you learn more."

I'm a bit concerned about the impact learning more might have on me and my wallet on this site...... ;-)

Thanks again, any thoughts welcome.