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Old 03-01-2011, 07:00 PM
Thite1195 Thite1195 is offline
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Default A question for dave

hey dave, thanks for the new apps and specially the ebook reader it looks awesome, so i was thinking the other day and well i thought this (i know is kind of persistent all of these things, but i want to know why) why is it that for the wp7 some big gaming companies made games for it and well now that u got them "working" for you guys, it shouldn't be a problem to ask them to do a version for the Zune HD, and well i wouldn't mind paying 10ms points to have the sims 3 on my zune, it would rock!, i know that the Zune HD was made with the sole purpose of a media device, but well (sorry for this next one) the Itouch was never made with gaming purpose either, and the zune HD has shown us that is pretty powerful, and i mean i don't want to have like a trillion apps/games, but some awesome ones would be pretty good, for example in games (me personally) i would love an endless game like sims or that u never "win" it.
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Old 03-01-2011, 07:05 PM
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Its been stated many times that the HD was not intended to have paid apps, and it never will, the infrastructure just isnt there. Sorry. And just so you know, the iTouch was designed to have games.
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Old 03-01-2011, 09:17 PM
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^ That.

And just my opinion, but I hope I never have to pay, any trivial amount, for any of the apps. The fact that they're free is one of the things that drew me to the HD in the first place.
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:23 PM
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Yea i love not having to pay for my apps, thats the best part of the ZHD, we get free quality apps, sure we dont have the option to pay for a fart machine or a flashlite, or for that matter a full scale platformer that would suck on the zune anyways, but we do get things like PGR, Audiosurf, and (most) anything that we really want can be made through XNA and ZDK, and on top of that unlike the iCrap we don't have to pay $100 to get our games on the market.

sorry for the min-rant XD
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Popo View Post
Its been stated many times that the HD was not intended to have paid apps, and it never will, the infrastructure just isnt there. Sorry. And just so you know, the iTouch was designed to have games.
This is partially incorrect. When the iPod Touch first came out, it was mostly a music player. It wasn't until a later firmware release that it enabled to run most of the apps available today. I say, there is a game SDK for the Zune, which was used to write whatever apps are available today. Why doesn't MS provide an app SDK so there can be better apps written? I don't think this is impossible or very hard. I am thinking MS is simply not interested. I also think this is ashamed. The Zune has great potential, but unfortunately this is not Microsoft's main interest.
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Old 03-02-2011, 02:59 PM
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Meh, IMO, an app-market "infrastructure" shouldn't be earth-shatteringly difficult to implement. However, I think that MS thinks that not allowing that to happen is making the ZuneHD appeal to the "audiophile" base, keeping it completely and unquestionably music-centric, but their stuck somewhere in the middle by lacking the music features as well (such as custom EQ, FLAC support, etc.). Regardless, MS seems pretty stubborn in their stance that Zune will never have as extensive of an app selection as the iOS market. Unfortunately, I think they may have lost touch with what will actually get them a sizable piece of the PMP market. For me, the Zune is great and does everything that I want it to, but I realize and understand that the majority of people out there won't be satisfied by what the Zune has to offer.
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Old 03-02-2011, 06:04 PM
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Why doesn't MS provide an app SDK so there can be better apps written? I don't think this is impossible or very hard. I am thinking MS is simply not interested. I also think this is ashamed.
and...

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Originally Posted by steinburger1109 View Post
Meh, IMO, an app-market "infrastructure" shouldn't be earth-shatteringly difficult to implement. However, I think that MS thinks that not allowing that to happen is making the ZuneHD appeal to the "audiophile" base, keeping it completely and unquestionably music-centric, but their stuck somewhere in the middle by lacking the music features as well (such as custom EQ, FLAC support, etc.).
I feel like I've explained this many times before, but clearly I need to do so again.

Firstly - I get it. You want apps, and you want an open marketplace for app developers to create content you can consume on your device. I hear you. Heck, I'm even with you. I unequivocally understand.

Here's the thing. The device, team, infrastructure and our software were just not designed to accommodate this. Our WP7 efforts absolutely were - hence the reason why ALL of that exists for WP7, but not for Zune HD.

Zune HD is a very different platform from WP7. What you're asking for is an enormous doubling of resources to support this functionality on a device that just wasn't built for it. What's more, you're assuming that "it can't be that hard" - and it is. We've done it, AAPL has done it, GOOG has done it, but nobody has done it twice and that's what you're asking for. There's a reason.

Now, as I've said previously - it isn't that we hate apps, or hate developers or anything like that. I'm doing my level best to bring as much super high quality content to the Zune HD - you've seen the results, and those beta testing for me right now are seeing it even more - but even with my passion, I can't justify duplicating the effort for a platform that just can't leverage the WP7 work.

So... what can I do instead? Well, I can make sure that all apps are free. I can make sure that all apps are high quality. I can make sure that - to the best of my ability - our small app collection addresses the needs of as many people as I can. I can also make sure your voices are heard inside the company - and they were. The 2010-11 collection of hardware that our team worked on - the WP7 phones - have a phenomenal development platform to leverage and that marketplace is growing in content rapidly.

What I can't do is justify the sustenance of a whole "second marketplace" (if you will) for Zune HD. We made the commitment that moving forward, apps would be a top priority - and in our subsequent hardware release (ie: the phones) that commitment was met.

Cheers, Dave.
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Old 03-02-2011, 06:26 PM
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Fair enough Dave, and I understand your response. What confuses me is why was the Zune built around the Tegra chipset, which was at that time one of the fastest processors available, and just market the Zune as a music player? From what I understand, there is no other DAP that offers as robust of a music experience as the Zune HD, and if it was also paired as an app machine, it would definately penetrate more into the Apple slice, IMO. Having said that, I feel that MS has shifted gears since the HD was released. Remember, the iPod Touch had no apps available when it was first launched. It was only possible to write apps for it after a major firmware release.
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Old 03-02-2011, 06:40 PM
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I'm fine just with the fact that free apps on the Zune are *way* higher quality than any free apps for iPod Touch. (just not as much of a selection) I don't think touch screen games should bother being advanced enough to really warrant charging more than $1 or $2 in the first place; when they try too hard we get things like the CoD Zombies port on iOS.
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Old 03-02-2011, 06:43 PM
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Ya, I would really like to be able to say more - but I just can't. It's easy to assume a) we were too stupid to see apps coming, or b) we were too arrogant to understand the importance. I can assure you it is neither, and folks like me were fighting hard for a broad app experience a LONG time ago.

There were a bunch of factors that led us down this path, probably the only one I can talk about is the timing of WP7. When WP slipped their schedule, that had an impact on Zune that meant we either had to slip our schedule too or press ahead with a product that was not aligned with WP7's marketplace, apps, SDK, resources, etc... It was a tough call - and I think we made the right decision ultimately, but is part of the reason our focus is media-first, not apps-first.

Cheers, Dave.
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Old 03-02-2011, 06:46 PM
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You're right and I am speaking without the experience of doing this before (of course), so I guess I'll leave it with blissful ignorance and not ask for details. But I definitely understand your point about justifying the market for the HD in that last paragraph.

Anyway thank you very much for, well, all of this...

"So... what can I do instead? Well, I can make sure that all apps are free. I can make sure that all apps are high quality. I can make sure that - to the best of my ability - our small app collection addresses the needs of as many people as I can. I can also make sure your voices are heard inside the company - and they were. The 2010-11 collection of hardware that our team worked on - the WP7 phones - have a phenomenal development platform to leverage and that marketplace is growing in content rapidly."
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Old 03-02-2011, 08:12 PM
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I know I'm going on my own tangent, but I understand and have read through the reason for a relatively small amount of apps, but what still annoys me (though there is definitely a good reason) is why the fully featured development kit version of xna wasn't released to the general public. We have some nice 3d and internet capable apps on the zune (made by microsoft or those hired by microsoft). Would giving that power to the community do any harm? I apologize if this has been went over as well, I just haven't seen anybody ask Dave.
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:42 PM
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I know I'm going on my own tangent, but I understand and have read through the reason for a relatively small amount of apps, but what still annoys me (though there is definitely a good reason) is why the fully featured development kit version of xna wasn't released to the general public. We have some nice 3d and internet capable apps on the zune (made by microsoft or those hired by microsoft). Would giving that power to the community do any harm? I apologize if this has been went over as well, I just haven't seen anybody ask Dave.
Hes got a point Dave, ive always been on your side when it came to defending the "app situation," but it does seem pretty silly that the full SDK wasnt released. what harm could it possibly do?
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Old 03-02-2011, 10:07 PM
Thite1195 Thite1195 is offline
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hey, thanks for all the answers and comments, you really help me a lot, i know understand your point of view, but i must agree with Eugbob, why we haven't had a firmware update in a long time?
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Old 03-02-2011, 10:31 PM
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Hes got a point Dave, ive always been on your side when it came to defending the "app situation," but it does seem pretty silly that the full SDK wasnt released. what harm could it possibly do?
Dave has explained previously that the additional, non-XNA 3.1 extensions for the Zune HD contain code not owned by Microsoft, and therefore they aren't at liberty to release them to the public. Unfortunately this means no ability to create 3D content or access the internet for enterprising "garage devs."

I personally think the question of the missing firmware is more pertinent, as the HD is still far from (portable) perfect(ion) in terms of its media capabilities...
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Old 03-03-2011, 06:30 AM
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So... what can I do instead? Well, I can make sure that all apps are free. I can make sure that all apps are high quality. I can make sure that - to the best of my ability - our small app collection addresses the needs of as many people as I can.

Cheers, Dave.
And we all appreciate the work being done for apps dave, but i would like to know if there are any Basic utilitie apps,ie. a notepad app, not znotes, an official notepad app by microsoft, or a official calendar app is coming?
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Old 03-03-2011, 06:35 AM
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Questions like that won't be answered, Dave can't tell us about any future apps or releases.
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Old 03-03-2011, 05:25 PM
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...... but nobody has done it twice and that's what you're asking for. There's a reason.

Now, as I've said previously - it isn't that we hate apps, or hate developers or anything like that. I'm doing my level best to bring as much super high quality content to the Zune HD - you've seen the results, and those beta testing for me right now are seeing it even more - but even with my passion, I can't justify duplicating the effort for a platform that just can't leverage the WP7 work.



Cheers, Dave.
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Old 03-03-2011, 07:46 PM
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Hey, i agree with that, i mean i don't want that dave tell us when is going to come out of anything, but, dave is there any chance that we get a official note app 4 the zune?
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Old 03-03-2011, 08:51 PM
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I personally think the question of the missing firmware is more pertinent, as the HD is still far from (portable) perfect(ion) in terms of its media capabilities...
Portable Perfection isn't even featured under its website splash page...
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