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  #41  
Old 08-16-2010, 11:21 AM
m_k m_k is offline
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Originally Posted by NSILMike View Post
MSC protocol can't handle some of the more advanced features on the Zune. But a BIG problem with MSC is that it operates as a mass storage device block (usually FAT,) and not at the logical file level. When a USB host PC has mounted an MSC partition, it assumes absolute control of the storage, which then cannot be touched by the device without risk of data corruption (until the PC closes the connection.)
And, I doubt you could get 'safe' DRM in that system. DRM uses encryption and copy control. I suspect (don't know...) that the encryption is bypassed on the device (too much CPU horsepower req'd) and therefore you depend on copy-control plus simple expiration dates (zune pass...) That's why MS freaks out about hacks that try to directly access data, why 3rd party XNA apps are sand-boxed so heavily, etc.
I keep hearing this rationalization, and I'm just not buying the logic, for one very simple and completely incontrovertible reason: there is ample PROOF that it's NOT the case at all!

That proof is readily available to anyone who has looked at a Sansa or (pfeh) Ipod, BOTH of which have heavy-duty DRM (in Sansa's case, TWO forms of DRM that I'm aware of -- Microsoft's, and Rhapsody's -- and in Apple's case, their own proprietary DRM which from what I've read is hated as much as any other type of DRM).

Yet, Sansa AND Apple do NOT prohibit disk/USB access to THEIR players!

There may be all sorts of reasons for implementing DRM, but the kind of total lockdown described above is NOT one of them! If it WERE necessary, then neither Sansa or Apple would be able to provide the kind of disk access that Microsoft, for whatever unfathomable reasons of their own ("might sell too many players" if they DIDN'T lock it down?) REFUSES to allow the buyers of THEIR products to enjoy.
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  #42  
Old 08-16-2010, 11:32 AM
m_k m_k is offline
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Originally Posted by Satellite_6 View Post
I don't see the benefit of using a program to put songs on a DAP. . .
Bingo. I don't see ANY benefit to HAVING to download and install a half-gig of bloat-hog crapware simply to be able to do that which the device is ABLE to do directly via the OS, if not for the "gatekeeper" nannyware layer they've applied OVER the existing USB interface.

It's like having a doorman who insists on piling the trashcans in front of your front door, and having you ask him nicely to remove them each time you want to enter or exit your home -- and when you ask him how about just LEAVING them away from the front door, he launches into a laughable "explanation" as to how it would be SO much work, and SO expensive, to try to figure out HOW to come up with a system like the one you request, and besides, HIS system is SO much nicer. I mean, a DOORMAN for gosh sake, more than willing to move those trashcans any time you feel like going through your door. SURELY the trivial inconvenience of WAITING for him to do it is a tiny price to pay for the immense benefit of having them piled there in the first place.

Right?

No, makes no sense to me either. I guess that's why they don't pay ME the big money to work up a sweat and storm around the stage screaming "DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!" like a mad hun.
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  #43  
Old 08-16-2010, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by m_k View Post
Bingo. I don't see ANY benefit to HAVING to download and install a half-gig of bloat-hog crapware simply to be able to do that which the device is ABLE to do directly via the OS, if not for the "gatekeeper" nannyware layer they've applied OVER the existing USB interface.

It's like having a doorman who insists on piling the trashcans in front of your front door, and having you ask him nicely to remove them each time you want to enter or exit your home -- and when you ask him how about just LEAVING them away from the front door, he launches into a laughable "explanation" as to how it would be SO much work, and SO expensive, to try to figure out HOW to come up with a system like the one you request, and besides, HIS system is SO much nicer. I mean, a DOORMAN for gosh sake, more than willing to move those trashcans any time you feel like going through your door. SURELY the trivial inconvenience of WAITING for him to do it is a tiny price to pay for the immense benefit of having them piled there in the first place.

Right?

No, makes no sense to me either. I guess that's why they don't pay ME the big money to work up a sweat and storm around the stage screaming "DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!" like a mad hun.
While I agree with the vast majority of what you have stated, I still prefer using a program as opposed to drag and drop for the ease of use of creating playlists. While I don't want to be walled in, like with the Zune software(which, despite it's basic offerings and shortcomings, visually and intuitively impresses me), I like the all-in-one nature of programs. Something along the lines of media jukebox or mediamonkey is what I find to be ideal for pmps, where you have advanced options and playlist ability, but you aren't locked down. I believe that companies should leave the choice to the consumer and not restrict us to purely MSC or MTP.
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  #44  
Old 08-16-2010, 12:40 PM
m_k m_k is offline
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Originally Posted by sonorguy View Post
While I agree with the vast majority of what you have stated, I still prefer using a program as opposed to drag and drop for the ease of use of creating playlists. While I don't want to be walled in, like with the Zune software(which, despite it's basic offerings and shortcomings, visually and intuitively impresses me), I like the all-in-one nature of programs. Something along the lines of media jukebox or mediamonkey is what I find to be ideal for pmps, where you have advanced options and playlist ability, but you aren't locked down. I believe that companies should leave the choice to the consumer and not restrict us to purely MSC or MTP.
That's it in a nutshell -- give the user the CHOICE of doing it either way. With Ipods, you can use the vile Itunes, or, you can put it into disk mode and copy files. With Sansas, you can either copy files to it directly via the OS, or, use a management program, such as Windows Media Player (which is necessary IF you're working with DRM'd stuff -- not WMP specifically, i.e., Rhapsody uses their own manager, it's just that for DRM'd stuff you DO need a manager -- but, if you don't do anything with DRM, then you don't need a manager. I riip my own CDs, I download podcasts, I record off the air talk radio, none of which uses DRM).

By serendipity, I found this program that's being developed (URL below) right after I posted my last comment. If this guy keeps up with it, I think he'll have something that will address the needs of those who want to be able to copy files without the eleven ton gorilla (zune.exe).

It's a web server that runs on the Zune!

http://www.codepug.com/zunewebserver.html
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  #45  
Old 08-16-2010, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by sonorguy View Post
So, if the Zune HD were to get a custom eq, would your primary pmp become a Zune instead of the Cowon J3?
Lestatar doesn't own a Cowon J3, I do. And if the EQ were a custom one I'd try it out on my sis-in-law's Zune HD and see if it compared (I have a feeling quite a few of us might convert).

Alas, we may never know - as MS seems to like holding on to stupidity as it's motto.
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  #46  
Old 08-16-2010, 02:47 PM
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Yet, Sansa AND Apple do NOT prohibit disk/USB access to THEIR players!
Apple does. Their newer players don't allow this level of access anymore. Their older players used to allow you to set up an MSC partition that would be accessible by USB, but not the device itself. For example, my wife had the original iPod Mini, which was 4GB. She could set up to I believe 512MB for mass storage, and the remaining amount was used for music.
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  #47  
Old 08-16-2010, 04:34 PM
NSILMike NSILMike is offline
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Originally Posted by m_k View Post
I keep hearing this rationalization, and I'm just not buying the logic, for one very simple and completely incontrovertible reason: there is ample PROOF that it's NOT the case at all!

That proof is readily available to anyone who has looked at a Sansa or (pfeh) Ipod, BOTH of which have heavy-duty DRM (in Sansa's case, TWO forms of DRM that I'm aware of -- Microsoft's, and Rhapsody's -- and in Apple's case, their own proprietary DRM which from what I've read is hated as much as any other type of DRM).

Yet, Sansa AND Apple do NOT prohibit disk/USB access to THEIR players!

There may be all sorts of reasons for implementing DRM, but the kind of total lockdown described above is NOT one of them! If it WERE necessary, then neither Sansa or Apple would be able to provide the kind of disk access that Microsoft, for whatever unfathomable reasons of their own ("might sell too many players" if they DIDN'T lock it down?) REFUSES to allow the buyers of THEIR products to enjoy.
that doesn't refute my theory at all... go back and reread what I said about DRM on the device itself. And remember...I said it's just a theory. If you could lock down access to the files and save yourself a ton of CPU cycles for watching pics or playing games during music playback (that otherwise would have to be dedicated to decrypting wma files) why wouldn't MS consider that option?
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  #48  
Old 08-16-2010, 04:43 PM
NSILMike NSILMike is offline
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Originally Posted by medion View Post
Apple does. Their newer players don't allow this level of access anymore. Their older players used to allow you to set up an MSC partition that would be accessible by USB, but not the device itself. For example, my wife had the original iPod Mini, which was 4GB. She could set up to I believe 512MB for mass storage, and the remaining amount was used for music.
And recent sansa players will not sync DRM'd music except via MTP or Plays-for-sure modes as well. Thus access to protected files is limited until an authentication process has been completed successfully (and that's just how it's phrased...'authentication'...which is partly why I wonder if the encryption/decryption element of DRM is bypassed on the sync'd copy of a file on a device.)
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  #49  
Old 08-17-2010, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by m_k View Post
Bingo. I don't see ANY benefit to HAVING to download and install a half-gig of bloat-hog crapware simply to be able to do that which the device is ABLE to do directly via the OS, if not for the "gatekeeper" nannyware layer they've applied OVER the existing USB interface.

It's like having a doorman who insists on piling the trashcans in front of your front door, and having you ask him nicely to remove them each time you want to enter or exit your home -- and when you ask him how about just LEAVING them away from the front door, he launches into a laughable "explanation" as to how it would be SO much work, and SO expensive, to try to figure out HOW to come up with a system like the one you request, and besides, HIS system is SO much nicer. I mean, a DOORMAN for gosh sake, more than willing to move those trashcans any time you feel like going through your door. SURELY the trivial inconvenience of WAITING for him to do it is a tiny price to pay for the immense benefit of having them piled there in the first place.

Right?

No, makes no sense to me either. I guess that's why they don't pay ME the big money to work up a sweat and storm around the stage screaming "DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!" like a mad hun.

...and the worst is that the same will happen with WP7...people will pay a few hundreds of dollars and they won't be able to transfer files with a normal way from another computer etc...failure...I'm bored with this system...it could be better if every manufacturer followed that route, then we wouldn't have to make comparisons between devices. Now, we have so cool devices like a ZuneHD and a WP7 and we are not being able to use them freely...
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  #50  
Old 08-18-2010, 06:28 PM
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Alright guys, I've deleted the off-topic debate. Please return to discussing your feelings regarding the need for a custom equalizer on the Zune HD. If anyone wants to rehash their off-topic argument outside of private messages, you will get an infraction or temporary vacation from the forums, depending on the tone and verbiage of the post(s).

If you disagree with the above, please report this post, or send a complaint to one of the admins. Or, if you have any questions, please send me a PM and I'll be glad to address your concerns in private.
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  #51  
Old 08-27-2010, 09:34 AM
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I see you guys got confused about medion's statement,..............please keep the comments coming in hope that MS see's this thread - you may eventually get a custom EQ if we all scream loud enough. Remember - the loudest squeak gets the oil.

Just remember - keep this thread on topic!!!
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  #52  
Old 08-27-2010, 10:45 AM
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The last thing I would want is for MS not to see this thread. To continue on why I think we need a custom EQ. I think we need a custom EQ because the ZuneHD has great SQ, and to use it to its full potential we need a custom EQ. I have JVC Flats, they sound good on my ZuneHD. However paired with a Rockboxed Fuze EQ, they sound amazing. I would like to see a custom EQ on the ZuneHD so I can use my headphones to their full potential. If MS doesn't put a custom EQ on the ZuneHD, then I simply cannot use it as my media device (I will use it for Internet, videos, etc.).
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  #53  
Old 08-27-2010, 07:31 PM
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I'd get a 64gb Zune HD the minute it went w/a custom EQ myself.
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  #54  
Old 08-27-2010, 07:37 PM
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While I, too, think a user-adjustable EQ is mandatory for a "premium" media-centric device, I must also say I hope that -- in the unlikely event the Zune Team does implement one -- its quality will prove to be good enough to use. After all this time, the mere presence of a custom EQ alone isn't going to cut it; if Microsoft ever does decide to cater to the audio-minded, EQ-literate among us, that EQ better work very well (i.e. no clipping, distortion, or signal degradation within reasonable tolerances) and with minimal battery consumption.

In other words, they should emulate Rockbox, not SanDisk.
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  #55  
Old 08-27-2010, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by epithetless View Post
While I, too, think a user-adjustable EQ is mandatory for a "premium" media-centric device, I must also say I hope that -- in the unlikely event the Zune Team does implement one -- its quality will prove to be good enough to use. After all this time, the mere presence of a custom EQ alone isn't going to cut it; if Microsoft ever does decide to cater to the EQ-literate, that EQ better work very well (i.e. no clipping, distortion, or signal degradation within reasonable tolerances) and with minimal battery consumption.

In other words, they should emulate Rockbox, not SanDisk.
That is an excellent point! What are the odds, though? Pretty slim, I would say.
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  #56  
Old 08-27-2010, 07:41 PM
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What are the odds, though? Pretty slim, I would say.
Yeah, I would say the same.
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  #57  
Old 08-27-2010, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by epithetless View Post
In other words, they should emulate Rockbox, not SanDisk.
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Originally Posted by Marvin the Martian View Post
That is an excellent point! What are the odds, though? Pretty slim, I would say.
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Yeah, I would say the same.
I'll give MS's Zune team the benefit of a doubt - I don't think they'll prove me wrong - if they're up to the challenge.
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  #58  
Old 08-27-2010, 07:58 PM
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I'll give MS's Zune team the benefit of a doubt - I don't think they'll prove me wrong - if they're up to the challenge.
Well, the world needs optimists.
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  #59  
Old 08-27-2010, 08:27 PM
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Well, the world needs optimists.
I try on occasion.
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  #60  
Old 08-28-2010, 02:24 AM
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I try on occasion.
Perhaps time for a nick change TDS?

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