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  #21  
Old 08-13-2010, 12:35 PM
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FallenArms3, the Tegra has very little RAM, it has troubles loading even a full webpage because of this, it would be very difficult to get Flash running on it.
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  #22  
Old 08-13-2010, 01:15 PM
NSILMike NSILMike is offline
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Originally Posted by nate8nate View Post
FallenArms3, the Tegra has very little RAM, it has troubles loading even a full webpage because of this, it would be very difficult to get Flash running on it.
that's not really relevant. On-chip DRAM is for caching data and pipelining instructions. Most of the DRAM is off-chip. http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft-Zune-HD/1170/1
In the 32GB zHD, it's a 1GB DDR SDRAM from Hynix. See step 8...
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  #23  
Old 08-13-2010, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by FallenArms3 View Post
That's a bit confusing, considering Flash 10 was supposed to be engineered with the Tegra chip in mind. Does it have to do with the OS, not the hardware?
It wasn't engineered for Tegra, but it does offer support for hardware acceleration via Tegra chipsets. However, Flash 10.1 on mobile requires 512MB of RAM. The Zune HD has 128MB. That's the hardware limitation.

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Originally Posted by NSILMike View Post
that's not really relevant. On-chip DRAM is for caching data and pipelining instructions. Most of the DRAM is off-chip. http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft-Zune-HD/1170/1
In the 32GB zHD, it's a 1GB DDR SDRAM from Hynix. See step 8...
Sorry, that link always confuses people. The Zune HD does not have 1 GB (gigabyte) of RAM. It has 1gb (gigabit). That's 128MB (megabytes).

Flash 10.1 on mobile requires 512MB of RAM. Flash Lite 4 seems to require 256MB. Flash Lite 3.x doesn't run within a browser on any device with less than 192MB of RAM.

There are ways to get Flash Lite working on the Zune HD, but it would be limited. Flash Lite also doesn't support GPU acceleration, and the ARM11-based CPU on the Zune HD is known to be clunky with Flash Lite.
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  #24  
Old 08-13-2010, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by medion View Post
It wasn't engineered for Tegra, but it does offer support for hardware acceleration via Tegra chipsets. However, Flash 10.1 on mobile requires 512MB of RAM. The Zune HD has 128MB. That's the hardware limitation.



Sorry, that link always confuses people. The Zune HD does not have 1 GB (gigabyte) of RAM. It has 1gb (gigabit). That's 128MB (megabytes).

[snipped]
my typo, not the link's. I typed GB when I meant Gb.
And where'd you get the Flash RAM reqm't? I don't doubt it, but have never found the specific specs...
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  #25  
Old 08-13-2010, 04:11 PM
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So it would be very possible that the ZuneHD2 would have enough RAM to support Flash? Anyway, if there's ever a YouTube app, then I don't really feel any need for Flash support. And I don't really feel the need for a YouTube app, either (I don't go on YouTube often). The only thing that I want my ZuneHD's browser to do is to check my gmail, ABI forums, PCWorld, MaximumPC, and weather.com quickly and efficiently, and it does that very well. So at the moment I don't really see any need for Flash support.
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  #26  
Old 08-13-2010, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by NSILMike View Post
my typo, not the link's. I typed GB when I meant Gb.
And where'd you get the Flash RAM reqm't? I don't doubt it, but have never found the specific specs...
Adobe came out and stated that 512MB was required for Flash 10.1 on any mobile device several months back. As for Flash Lite, I'm just posting observations. I haven't seen FL 4 on any device with less than 256MB of RAM. I haven't seen FL 3.x run (without being further gimped) on any device with less than 192MB of RAM.

Someone awhile back contested this by posting a device with WinCE and 128MB of RAM with Flash Lite...but that device didn't run FL within the browser, and it was more limited than normal in terms of what it could open.

Quote:
So it would be very possible that the ZuneHD2 would have enough RAM to support Flash?
We don't know yet if there will be a ZuneHD 2, and if there is, will it be an upgraded device to what we have now, or will it run WP7? Also, WP7 isn't slated to have Flash at launch either. We'll see.
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  #27  
Old 08-13-2010, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by McDougal View Post
So it would be very possible that the ZuneHD2 would have enough RAM to support Flash? Anyway, if there's ever a YouTube app, then I don't really feel any need for Flash support. And I don't really feel the need for a YouTube app, either (I don't go on YouTube often). The only thing that I want my ZuneHD's browser to do is to check my gmail, ABI forums, PCWorld, MaximumPC, and weather.com quickly and efficiently, and it does that very well. So at the moment I don't really see any need for Flash support.
more complicated than that... HTML5 is coming, Flash has security issues, and battery issues, youtube has fly-over menu's, the root HD browser needs serious update work to add flash, etc. etc. It's not a simple decision, and even more complex project depending on which way they go.
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  #28  
Old 08-13-2010, 04:40 PM
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Yeah I know that we don't know anything yet about the Zune HD2, and I don't really care. I also don't care if they don't add Flash to the Zune HD2 (if there is one). However I understand that it is more complicated than just hardware. All I care about now is if they continue to release new features/stability updates for the current ZuneHD. A while back I stated that I was disappointed in Microsoft for their poor support for the ZuneHD, and I was going to sell it and replace it with a Cowon S9. I've changed my mind, I'm keeping my Zune and getting a Fuze for music purposes only, and I will use my Zune for other purposes. Because I'm keeping my Zune, I hope that MS keeps releasing updates for it and doesn't ditch it, stop releasing anything for it, and pay attention to the ZuneHD2 and Windows Phone 7 instead, I hope that they pay as much attention to the current Zune HD as they will with the 2nd generation and Windows Phone 7, and I hope that all the new features in the 2nd generation will be available as updates to the current Zune HD (if there are no hardware restrictions).
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  #29  
Old 08-13-2010, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by McDougal View Post
Yeah I know that we don't know anything yet about the Zune HD2, and I don't really care. I also don't care if they don't add Flash to the Zune HD2 (if there is one). However I understand that it is more complicated than just hardware. All I care about now is if they continue to release new features/stability updates for the current ZuneHD. A while back I stated that I was disappointed in Microsoft for their poor support for the ZuneHD, and I was going to sell it and replace it with a Cowon S9. I've changed my mind, I'm keeping my Zune and getting a Fuze for music purposes only, and I will use my Zune for other purposes. Because I'm keeping my Zune, I hope that MS keeps releasing updates for it and doesn't ditch it, stop releasing anything for it, and pay attention to the ZuneHD2 and Windows Phone 7 instead, I hope that they pay as much attention to the current Zune HD as they will with the 2nd generation and Windows Phone 7, and I hope that all the new features in the 2nd generation will be available as updates to the current Zune HD (if there are no hardware restrictions).
If I had to predict (and I don't have any inside info...) I'd say:

1) There's a slim to moderate chance for an HD2. It would most likely be a WP7 phone reference design with the cellular functionality stripped out. Done by MS? Done by a partner...? I wouldn't even hazard a guess.

2) HD (and if it happens, HD2) are the last of the line if current trends hold. Dedicated MP3 players have flattened out if not even begun to decline. It makes no sense to carry them and a music capable phone at the same time. So, updates will continue but not for terribly long... except for the HD2 if it's what I think it is...and so would be on the same OS as WP7 phones.
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  #30  
Old 08-13-2010, 06:54 PM
Maxis Maxis is offline
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Originally Posted by NSILMike View Post
If I had to predict (and I don't have any inside info...) I'd say:

1) There's a slim to moderate chance for an HD2. It would most likely be a WP7 phone reference design with the cellular functionality stripped out. Done by MS? Done by a partner...? I wouldn't even hazard a guess.

2) HD (and if it happens, HD2) are the last of the line if current trends hold. Dedicated MP3 players have flattened out if not even begun to decline. It makes no sense to carry them and a music capable phone at the same time. So, updates will continue but not for terribly long... except for the HD2 if it's what I think it is...and so would be on the same OS as WP7 phones.
Sorry i disagree strongly with your reading of the trends

It may not be a good business case for microsoft to support the phone and the pmp separately.. Which is fine ... but the entire market will not move in this convergence direction. Not everyone wants their phone and music integrated. There will always be a market for discrete players. Microsoft simply failed by taking the wrong approach on MULTIPLE LEVELS from the beginning of the zune devices..... Marketing .. design . feature set .. support .. just to name a few categories...(It still boggles the mind how they think a serious media player can do without an EQ... seriously after all this time .. three versions ??) some serious facepalm moments over the entire zune experience has occurred.. and the device itself is now stagnant. and deservedly so.

The software zune experience may be saved .. but that experience wasnt a bed of roses all the way either..

Last edited by Maxis; 08-13-2010 at 07:00 PM.
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  #31  
Old 08-13-2010, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by McDougal View Post
Yeah I know that we don't know anything yet about the Zune HD2, and I don't really care. I also don't care if they don't add Flash to the Zune HD2 (if there is one). However I understand that it is more complicated than just hardware. All I care about now is if they continue to release new features/stability updates for the current ZuneHD. A while back I stated that I was disappointed in Microsoft for their poor support for the ZuneHD, and I was going to sell it and replace it with a Cowon S9. I've changed my mind, I'm keeping my Zune and getting a Fuze for music purposes only, and I will use my Zune for other purposes. Because I'm keeping my Zune, I hope that MS keeps releasing updates for it and doesn't ditch it, stop releasing anything for it, and pay attention to the ZuneHD2 and Windows Phone 7 instead, I hope that they pay as much attention to the current Zune HD as they will with the 2nd generation and Windows Phone 7, and I hope that all the new features in the 2nd generation will be available as updates to the current Zune HD (if there are no hardware restrictions).
Congrats to you ... I stuck with my zune30 (Bought on the first day) and even bought a zune HD (Pre ordered and recieved on the first day)... glad you plan to stay with em but ill be getting off at the Cowon J3 station by September..
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  #32  
Old 08-13-2010, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Maxis View Post
Congrats to you ... I stuck with my zune30 (Bought on the first day) and even bought a zune HD (Pre ordered and recieved on the first day)... glad you plan to stay with em but ill be getting off at the Cowon J3 station by September..
I still have my 30GB brick, waiting for a non-apple 64GB device to be ready. I was hoping for the Zune HD to pull through and get a custom EQ, but since this hasn't happened I, too, am going for the J3.
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  #33  
Old 08-14-2010, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Maxis View Post
Sorry i disagree strongly with your reading of the trends

It may not be a good business case for microsoft to support the phone and the pmp separately.. Which is fine ... but the entire market will not move in this convergence direction. Not everyone wants their phone and music integrated. There will always be a market for discrete players. Microsoft simply failed by taking the wrong approach on MULTIPLE LEVELS from the beginning of the zune devices..... Marketing .. design . feature set .. support .. just to name a few categories...(It still boggles the mind how they think a serious media player can do without an EQ... seriously after all this time .. three versions ??) some serious facepalm moments over the entire zune experience has occurred.. and the device itself is now stagnant. and deservedly so.

The software zune experience may be saved .. but that experience wasnt a bed of roses all the way either..
It's not my reading of the trends...it's in Apple's 10-K, it's in the analyst reports, it's in MS presentations ("3 screens and the cloud".) It's happening, and in plain view. Will it kill dedicated PMPs? No..., but it will push them to the low end of the market.
Convergence is a fact. And, it's doing the same thing to other verticals, such as GPS devices for instance.
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  #34  
Old 08-14-2010, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by NSILMike View Post
It's not my reading of the trends...it's in Apple's 10-K, it's in the analyst reports, it's in MS presentations ("3 screens and the cloud".) It's happening, and in plain view. Will it kill dedicated PMPs? No..., but it will push them to the low end of the market.
Convergence is a fact. And, it's doing the same thing to other verticals, such as GPS devices for instance.
Frankly Microsoft research hasnt impressed me not one iota.. sorry .. All the bull dung about market reasearch telling them that people dont give a damn about EQ and about people wanting automatic synch when zune software ver 2.0 came out said it all about their "research" in my opinion.

As for apple.. Lets see if they release an ipod touch or they leave all that money on the table..

No one is completely denying convergence .. HOWEVER.. some people are very concerned about having a jack of all trades /master of none device vs having a dedicated device that does what its supposed to do well.. There will never be total convergence or you will be leaving money on the table..
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  #35  
Old 08-14-2010, 11:01 AM
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Maxis - He isn't stating that the PMP market will die, only that it will be (and currently is) shrinking. Total PMP/DAP sales year over year dropped in 2009 from 2008. As smartphone sales pick up, PMP sales will decline.

This is why Microsoft is pulling out. They couldn't grow their market share when it was booming, so just imagine how bad their sales would be in a declining market. Of course Apple won't stop making their players, as they are the dominant devices in the market. But, Apple has already seen and expects to see fewer sales. They saw this coming years ago when they started making the Iphone.

Convergence affects all devices in this area, be it digital cameras, GPS, PMPs, etc. I'm the kind of person who always has to have my smart phone AND PMP. My wife, on the other hand, wants her smart phone AND point-and-shoot. The one constant? The smart phone. Before her Iphone, she used to always have an Ipod, but she's replaced it with her Iphone.
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  #36  
Old 08-14-2010, 11:48 AM
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Im quite aware that the market is shrinking. And as a matter of fact if you read my reply to the initial post i stated that we have already established that MS prolly wont be releasing another zune. However .. the way the poster implied in his first post was that everything is converging ... That will not be the case .. Market saturation and resultant decline aside discrete products will always be there and thats my point ..

My example ? .. Im getting an iphone .. but ask me if i will be putting any music on it ?

Ask me if i ever used the Gps on my Blackberry over my Car Gps ?

Some people have higher expectations from their devices and prefer a more focused and feature rich approach. So there will aways be a market there. I have grown to realize that when spending your hard earned cash you really should not be accepting compromise and theres alot of people in my category.
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Old 08-14-2010, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxis View Post
Im quite aware that the market is shrinking. And as a matter of fact if you read my reply to the initial post i stated that we have already established that MS prolly wont be releasing another zune. However .. the way the poster implied in his first post was that everything is converging ... That will not be the case .. Market saturation and resultant decline aside discrete products will always be there and thats my point ..

My example ? .. Im getting an iphone .. but ask me if i will be putting any music on it ?

Ask me if i ever used the Gps on my Blackberry over my Car Gps ?

Some people have higher expectations from their devices and prefer a more focused and feature rich approach. So there will aways be a market there. I have grown to realize that when spending your hard earned cash you really should not be accepting compromise and theres alot of people in my category.
Nothing is ever absolute, and the more things change, the greater the chance that something else happens that no one has seen yet.
But, it's pretty clear that convergence is a strong trend now.
I never said everything is converging... convergence is a process, not an absolute. But, do you remember PDAs? Seen one in use recently...? PMPs won't disappear soon, but they'll likely end up concentrated in the very high end and the very low end niches.
It's clear you don't like the current trend, and that's fine. Until the technology becomes technically or financially obsolete, there's usually someone willing to serve the boutique tastes- and they can hang on for quite awhile since the mainstream OEMs can't compete for 'small' market opportunities.

Last edited by NSILMike; 08-14-2010 at 01:29 PM.
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  #38  
Old 08-15-2010, 02:13 PM
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Microsoft may very well release a HD 2 to compete more directly with the ipod touch. Some of us refuse to pay an additional $30 + monthly for internet access. besides the more things my phone does the worse it seems to function as a phone. With wi-fi becoming available free just about everywhere its never hard to jump on a network and check your e-mail. Moving over to the wm7 os there will be a onslaught of apps and with the success of the touch Microsoft would be foolish not to tap into the market. We can all agree that the form of the HD is one of its greatest features, with just an upgrade of the cpu and ram (i wouldnt mind a small internal speaker either) it would be more than capable of running apps without a major redesign. I wont be getting rid of any of my ipods to get a HD2 if it is released but i would certainly add one to my collection.
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  #39  
Old 08-15-2010, 04:41 PM
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Microsoft may very well release a HD 2 to compete more directly with the ipod touch. Some of us refuse to pay an additional $30 + monthly for internet access. besides the more things my phone does the worse it seems to function as a phone. With wi-fi becoming available free just about everywhere its never hard to jump on a network and check your e-mail. Moving over to the wm7 os there will be a onslaught of apps and with the success of the touch Microsoft would be foolish not to tap into the market. We can all agree that the form of the HD is one of its greatest features, with just an upgrade of the cpu and ram (i wouldnt mind a small internal speaker either) it would be more than capable of running apps without a major redesign. I wont be getting rid of any of my ipods to get a HD2 if it is released but i would certainly add one to my collection.
Actually I'd like it if the HD2 ditched the 16:9 aspect ratio in favor of something wider. 16:9 works fine for music menus, but for web browsing and apps in general it's far too narrow for my tastes. When I first used a Touch and compared the web browsing to my ZHD, I was surprised by how much an extra 0.2 inches of diagonal space can help. And that's because most of that diagonal space is not adding to the vertical length, but rather the horizontal.

Anyway, I don't know why more companies haven't tried to compete with the iPod Touch. They finally came out with some decent competition for the iPhone with the new Android devices. But when you look at the PMP market, there is quite literally nothing that competes with the iPod Touch in terms of apps. I hate pointing to apps as some all-important factor, but let's face it, without them the Touch is a fairly pedestrian PMP; apps are what transform it into a games and productivity machine. So I guess when I think about it, I do know why no one has tried to compete with the iPod Touch - because they don't have the ecosystem to support it. The good news is that with the Samsung Galaxy-based thing coming out, and Windows Phone 7 on the horizon, there will be opportunity for some quality devices to be made which can take advantage of these app stores, ending Apples total domination of this market.
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  #40  
Old 08-28-2010, 12:43 AM
kues1ner kues1ner is offline
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so dave can you at least give us the categories of the games that will be released?
will there ever be a title from the xbox on to the zune?
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