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  #41  
Old 07-01-2010, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by shakermaker41 View Post
If Microsoft did something to piss off Verizon and the result is no launch on Verizon (as the Engadget article suggested), then yeah I would blame Microsoft.
Exactly. When it comes to the specific situation laid out in the Engadget article (provided it's true), Microsoft ruining its relationship with Verizon falls squarely on Microsoft. In that case, run-of-the-mill engineering and revenue concerns aren't the primary issues at work...and, I have to say, "corporate bad blood" is a pretty sad reason to keep a product out of customers' hands.
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  #42  
Old 07-01-2010, 01:15 AM
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I don't buy the CDMA vs. GSM Argument. It's just a radio. It doesn't take any major engineering or software design. You switch out the radio, and if needed, tell the phone to use that frequency.

So who's fault is it? Well, let's work backwords. MS seems to be mad at Verizon because their billing requirements (price of phone, required $30 data plan) effectively killed the Kin, as so many predicted that it would. So in this case, if this were the only problem, I'd be pissed at Verizon.

However, if you trace it back further, you'd see that Verizon was angry at MS for delaying a promised phone by 18 months. The Sidekick was a very popular series, and Verizon thought that by holiday of 2008, they'd have a killer exclusive for the tween crowd. And not only did MS fail to deliver it on time, but their inner politics (which were well documented) caused the phone to be 18 months late!

Nvidia seems to have soured over this as well. Between no marketing in the Zune, and the huge delay in Kin, Nvidia has jumped ship and said that their Tegra 2 is aimed at tablets based on Android 3.

So yea, MS screwed up royally. And trust me, MS needs Verizon more than Verizon needs MS. If Verizon doesn't get WP7, they still have an amazing relationship with Google, and Android is doign quite well. So without Verizon, where does MS go? Sprint is out, or they wouldn't be able to use the BS CDMA radio excuse. That leaves AT&T (with their Iphone), or T-Mobile (with half the subscriber base). Without support from Verizon, WP7 is doomed within the US.
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  #43  
Old 07-01-2010, 01:26 AM
DaveMac-MS DaveMac-MS is offline
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Disclaimer: I have no inside info here AT ALL on the WP7 situation.

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Originally Posted by medion View Post
I don't buy the CDMA vs. GSM Argument. It's just a radio. It doesn't take any major engineering or software design. You switch out the radio, and if needed, tell the phone to use that frequency.
Flat out wrong. I know there are considerable software differences between the two, and there was a very clear reason why the Europe launch of KIN (now no longer according to the public statements made) - which was on GSM - was not made at the same time as the CDMA launch here in the States with Verizon.

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Originally Posted by medion View Post
MS seems to be mad at Verizon because their billing requirements (price of phone, required $30 data plan) effectively killed the Kin, as so many predicted that it would.
<snip>
Verizon was angry at MS for delaying a promised phone by 18 months.
Again - as a commentary on the article only, it seems like if this was the case, it was a wash to me. The article claims Verizon was bothered by MS delays, and MS was bothered by Verizon pricing. If accurate, not a great situation, period. Not sure I'd call that "MS screwing up royally" - especially not since if true, the MS delays would have been known well before VZW had to make decisions on data pricing.

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Originally Posted by medion View Post
And trust me, MS needs Verizon more than Verizon needs MS.
<snip>
Without support from Verizon, WP7 is doomed within the US.
Not sure I agree here. MS needs ALL the carriers - US and international - for WP7 to be a success. I totally get that. But even this article isn't suggesting MS would flat out turn down any particular carrier - it is just suggesting that CDMA wouldn't be supported at launch. Who knows whether that is true, but I can think of a bunch of legitimate reasons why it might be, none of which are based on "sour grapes". Heck, MS was intending to launch CDMA before GSM for KIN, so clearly in these cases someone has to come first, and someone has to come next.

Or I could be way off base. Just sayin' that you might be too...

Cheers, Dave.
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  #44  
Old 07-01-2010, 02:59 AM
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I wouldn't get too centred on Verizon as the make it or break it deal for WP7...for MS to succeed they really do need the whole world to get on the WP7 bandwagon like Dave suggests or the phone is DOA...Verizon and any other carrier will eventually come on board if there is enough potential demand for these devices....business is business and a sour relationship one day is literally forgotten the next if money is there to be made...

Keys for MS to succeed with WP7:
-worldwide launch of hardware immediately, not delayed for other regions like MS have been doing recently with other products
-differentiation with product offering and thus worldwide launch of zune music/video services for wp7 at launch and not delayed(big deal imho) and xbox integration

If they do not co-ordinate things extremely well with marketing and products worldwide, they will have to either forget about the mobile space or be willing to sink billions into it for many many years more with no ROI...let's hope MS has learned something from years of inactivity in the mobile market
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  #45  
Old 07-01-2010, 03:14 AM
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Flat out wrong. I know there are considerable software differences between the two, and there was a very clear reason why the Europe launch of KIN (now no longer according to the public statements made) - which was on GSM - was not made at the same time as the CDMA launch here in the States with Verizon.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. It really is as simple as swapping the radio, and setting up the software to work on the frequency. Now, yes, there are other considerations, such as, how much room does the phone have for varying radios? For instance, 3G phones on AT&T support GSM (Edge) and UMTS/HSDPA (3G). They don't need an extra radio to be a "World phone." On phones made for CDMA carriers, 1-2 more radios is needed to make it a world phone, and in one case (the BB Tour 9630), WIFI was sacrificed to accomodate this radio. So yes, adding in extra radios will cause an engineering issue, unless the phone is initially engineered to have that extra space.

Quote:
Again - as a commentary on the article only, it seems like if this was the case, it was a wash to me. The article claims Verizon was bothered by MS delays, and MS was bothered by Verizon pricing. If accurate, not a great situation, period. Not sure I'd call that "MS screwing up royally" - especially not since if true, the MS delays would have been known well before VZW had to make decisions on data pricing.
Sure, you snipped one of my points against Verizon, and one against MS. That alone wouldn't be MS screwing up royally. You also call it a wash as if it's tit for tat, but you neglect to mention that this would have been avoided had MS's inner politics not caused an 18-month delay in a product that needs an annual refresh just to stay competitive. When you release a product 2 cycles after the competitor, you're already behind. That would be like someone trying to release a smartphone OS in 2010 without copy/paste and justifying it because it was acceptable for Apple to do it in 2007. Oh, wait...

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Heck, MS was intending to launch CDMA before GSM for KIN, so clearly in these cases someone has to come first, and someone has to come next.
I 100% wholeheartedly agree. It is next to impossible to launch a phone on on CDMA and GSM at the same time. It's never been done before!

Well, if you exclude all of the simultaneous BB Curve launches, or the current Samsung Galaxy S launch, among other examples. Oh wait, there's one more nagging issue - MS isn't making the phones, HTC/Samsung/SE/etc. are. So then the only way we wouldn't see at least one of these phones end up on Verizon is if Verizon or MS actively blocked it! There's no way multiple manufacturers release WP7-based products and conveneniently none end up on Verizon unless either Verizon refuses them, or MS prevents them from releasing it.

I've seen this before, Killing off the Kin repeatedly after launching it, and less than a year before you launch WP7. It reminds me of Sega launching the 32X and killing it right before launching the Saturn.

Quote:
Or I could be way off base. Just sayin' that you might be too...
You try to come off as concillatory or "fair" when your first words in the post were;

Quote:
Flat out wrong
Lip -

Quote:
I wouldn't get too centred on Verizon as the make it or break it deal for WP7...for MS to succeed they really do need the whole world to get on the WP7 bandwagon like Dave suggests or the phone is DOA...Verizon and any other carrier will eventually come on board if there is enough potential demand for these devices....business is business and a sour relationship one day is literally forgotten the next if money is there to be made...
Verizon is the largest US carrier by subscribers. It's a very important carrier, despite being CDMA. It's certainly helped to put Motorola and HTC either back on the map or further up the scale. MS has to focus on both the domestic front (competition being Android, Iphone, and BB, 2 of which are huge on Verizon), and globally (with Symbian being the reigning king). Not being on Verizon could be a disaster for them.

Quote:
-worldwide launch of hardware immediately, not delayed for other regions like MS have been doing recently with other products
There's actually a reason vendors do this. If they launch globally, you get that initial sales spike followed by a lull. If you increase the areas you sell to gradually, you get an upward movement in sales, which keeps investors happy.

Quote:
If they do not co-ordinate things extremely well with marketing and products worldwide, they will have to either forget about the mobile space or be willing to sink billions into it for many many years more with no ROI...let's hope MS has learned something from years of inactivity in the mobile market
I agree and fully expect an aggressive marketing campaign. This isn't a niche market they're going after (like the Zune HD). This is an essential part of their 3-screens and a Cloud strategy.
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  #46  
Old 07-01-2010, 07:08 AM
captainzune2 captainzune2 is offline
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Nvidia seems to have soured over this as well. Between no marketing in the Zune, and the huge delay in Kin, Nvidia has jumped ship and said that their Tegra 2 is aimed at tablets based on Android 3.
WOW!!! reminds me of the thread where people were speculating on the peripherals that vendors would market for the Zune and some opined why would anyone do that when MS does such a poor job of marketing the Zune.....And now the hardware folks are running away.....

I think MS is still conducting business under an old business model where people waited, caved in and pandered to them cause they were the big man on campus.....I wonder why it is so hard for them to see that this isn't the case anymore, at least in fields that don't involve PCs.

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  #47  
Old 07-01-2010, 07:57 AM
DaveMac-MS DaveMac-MS is offline
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Bugger, I'd written a big long response and then accidentally hit the back button and lost it all! I'm tired after a red-eye from LAX to ORD, so I'll shorten my response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by medion View Post
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. It really is as simple as swapping the radio, and setting up the software to work on the frequency.
Medion, seriously - you are MASSIVELY oversimplifying. Yes, you need to change the radio, which means changing silicon which isn't pin compatible so now you're changing PCBs which means a new SKU, which means top to toe recertification, testing and regulatory approvals. You're also talking new drivers, baseband radio software, some new UI, all of which has to be unit tested and then recertified and tested with the new hardware, all of which has to be sync'd (since regulatory certification can't occur without both hardware and software being done).

So, I stand by my comments that this is a non-trivial problem - absolutely worth it from a business perspective of course - and one which can't be dismissed as "simple".

Quote:
Originally Posted by medion View Post
...this would have been avoided had MS's inner politics not caused an 18-month delay in a product that needs an annual refresh just to stay competitive.
Exactly how familiar are you with Microsoft's "inner-politics"? Look, there's speculation, rumour, finger-pointing, "pundits" commenting, etc... All I know is that likely none of it is correct, and the truth is some hybrid of what is out there.

As a person who writes contracts and does deals for Microsoft on a daily basis, I'm sure there were exit clauses for both parties and that both parties consulted heavily with each other during the course of the project. Maybe there were delays, but maybe they were jointly agreed upon as new features were added? Maybe market conditions played a factor? Who knows - all I know is that on launch day, both parties would have shipped the product with the best of intentions and hopes. A post-mortem should be done only by those _in the know_ and able to look at the big picture objectively.

Neither you, I nor anyone here really knows what went on - so rather than publicly bash one company or another, I'd prefer to see what emerges officially from either camp OR speculate and debate objectively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by medion View Post
Oh wait, there's one more nagging issue - MS isn't making the phones, HTC/Samsung/SE/etc. are. So then the only way we wouldn't see at least one of these phones end up on Verizon is if Verizon or MS actively blocked it!
But again, who's saying WP7 phones won't end up on Verizon? Nobody! The original article just speculated that perhaps they wouldn't be there at launch. I have no idea if that's the case, but if it is - would I lay good money that they'll be there ASAP afterwards? Heck yeah I would.

Quote:
Originally Posted by medion View Post
You try to come off as concillatory or "fair" when your first words in the post were "flat wrong".
Sorry about that - maybe a little harsh, but you were flat wrong. You were using language to imply that the process was dismissively simple when I can tell you for a fact that is not the case. Not only am I familiar with the size of the various radio teams at Microsoft and other hardware vendors needed to make both radio flavours viable, but I have a masters degree in mobile telephony (electronics) engineering. Trust me on this one, I'm a doctor.

Cheers, Dave.
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  #48  
Old 07-01-2010, 12:00 PM
Olley Olley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS View Post
... Look, there's speculation, rumour, finger-pointing, "pundits" commenting, etc... All I know is that likely none of it is correct, and the truth is some hybrid of what is out there.

... Sorry about that - maybe a little harsh, but you were flat wrong. Cheers, Dave.
Two thoughts. The first paragraph sound like a perfect definition of politics. Secondly, is "flat wrong" worse than or better than "wrong"? Would "hilly wrong" be better? Just curious.

Olley
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  #49  
Old 07-01-2010, 12:36 PM
shakermaker41 shakermaker41 is offline
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This topic going getting broader and broader. Epithetless and I were just stating how disappointing it would be if WP7 wasn't launched on Verizon, especially if the reason was because MS was slow to release the Kin (as Engadget suggested). I have no doubt WP7 will be on Verizon at some point. But it according to Engadget there exists a possibility that it might not be there at launch and that would really disappoint me.

My company will pay for my smartphone + data plan, but I have been patiently holding onto my very basic LG phone waiting for WP7 rather than go out and get an iPhone or Droid right now. I get made fun of by co-workers regularly for this. I'm also not leaving Verizon, so having to wait longer to get a Verizon WP7 is not something I'm going to be happy about if it happens
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  #50  
Old 07-01-2010, 02:53 PM
DaveMac-MS DaveMac-MS is offline
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So to (hopefully) close this out - WP7 won't ship on some carriers, not on others, on some hardware, not on others, because of the timeframe of KIN - of that I'm sure.

There may be circumstances where that happens, but it would be for other reasons, not something like that.

Cheers, Dave.
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  #51  
Old 07-01-2010, 04:07 PM
m_k m_k is offline
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Originally Posted by Celenet View Post
Who honestly did not expect that?
Microsoft.

(Was that a trick question or something???)
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  #52  
Old 07-01-2010, 04:57 PM
synaesthetic synaesthetic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lip View Post
If you think that you are crazy...MS is betting the farm, quite literally, in wp7...they will sink millions in that platform and will have the patience to wait it out for years....look what they did with the xbox for an idea how willing MS is to lose money in the short term for long term gain...

wp7 seems to be a very well thought out product with the full backing of the company...the kin seemed like it was a last ditch attempt to make something out of a lost acquisition (danger)
I'm not crazy.

No matter what they do to pretty it up, no matter how many times they change the name, it's still Windows CE, and it still sucks big hairy green donkey balls.

Microsoft would be better off designing a new smartphone OS from the ground up, than keep trying to eff around with Windows Crappy Edition.
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  #53  
Old 07-01-2010, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I'm not crazy.

No matter what they do to pretty it up, no matter how many times they change the name, it's still Windows CE, and it still sucks big hairy green donkey balls.

Microsoft would be better off designing a new smartphone OS from the ground up, than keep trying to eff around with Windows Crappy Edition.
It is a completely new OS...if you cannot see that you are blind...
Ive no problem debating particular features or opinions but blindly putting the hate on a product because its from a company you are upset at for some reason is stupid...
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  #54  
Old 07-01-2010, 07:10 PM
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I was going to get the KIN2 Just for its 720p capture its video capture was amazing for a phone that cheap. EVO4G iPhone4 and all those top of the line smartphones have terrible 720p . Except dedicated camera phones but those are different.
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  #55  
Old 07-01-2010, 08:47 PM
Stujoe Stujoe is offline
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Kins didn't interest me. Kins were too expensive for my kids. WP7 does interest me, a lot, but if they don't go to Verizon by the time my upgrade is due, I will just end up with a Droid.
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  #56  
Old 07-01-2010, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lip View Post
It is a completely new OS...if you cannot see that you are blind...
Ive no problem debating particular features or opinions but blindly putting the hate on a product because its from a company you are upset at for some reason is stupid...
Kin, Zune HD, and Windows Phone 7 all use Windows CE for its Kernel. But I disagree with the previous poster on scrapping it. Windows CE is an excellent OS for the mobile platform, it just needs some tweaking. WP7's variant on WinCE seems to be doing that tweaking, which means starting over in some areas (features such as copy/paste).

Also, it has been rumored that WP7 would be the last WinCE based mobile OS from MS, and that WP8 would use a new kernel, currently not in use by any MS product. My only concern for that, if it is true, is that we're ditching app compatibility for WP7, will we again do it for WP8?
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  #57  
Old 07-01-2010, 11:20 PM
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poisonousjuice poisonousjuice is offline
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Originally Posted by Stujoe View Post
Kins didn't interest me. Kins were too expensive for my kids. WP7 does interest me, a lot, but if they don't go to Verizon by the time my upgrade is due, I will just end up with a Droid.
I'm in the same boat but my upgrade isn't till January. hopefully the dust will settle by then.
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  #58  
Old 07-02-2010, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by medion View Post
Kin, Zune HD, and Windows Phone 7 all use Windows CE for its Kernel. But I disagree with the previous poster on scrapping it. Windows CE is an excellent OS for the mobile platform, it just needs some tweaking. WP7's variant on WinCE seems to be doing that tweaking, which means starting over in some areas (features such as copy/paste).

Also, it has been rumored that WP7 would be the last WinCE based mobile OS from MS, and that WP8 would use a new kernel, currently not in use by any MS product. My only concern for that, if it is true, is that we're ditching app compatibility for WP7, will we again do it for WP8?
Yes, the kernal is the same but the OS is very different...I guess its what one defines as the OS...I define it as what the user sees.
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  #59  
Old 07-02-2010, 03:44 PM
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More info on the death of KIN (although not sure why this is in a Zune HD forum but seems like ZuneHD people are interested)

http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/02/l...-inside-story/
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  #60  
Old 07-02-2010, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by poisonousjuice View Post
More info on the death of KIN (although not sure why this is in a Zune HD forum but seems like ZuneHD people are interested)

http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/02/l...-inside-story/

This certainly shows upper management is letting the boat drift with no rudder...no excuse for wasting money like this because of internal politics...don't get me wrong...this type of nonsense happens everyday at most companies(happens at mine) that are big enough for politics but it rarely comes out so publicly and rarely costs this much money...
This Lees guy seems like a complete bore...
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