Questions about HD650 to dfkt

[Chef]

I was originally going to PM this to dfkt, since it is an individual question, but I guess other people might want to know to, so I'll just put it in the forum and hope he sees it.

Hi dfkt,

[skip to * for just questions without background]

I saw your post concerning the poor performance of AMP3 and HiFiMan and I was pretty pleased to see such a dedicated warning. Honestly it is awful what people get away with.

Anyway, on further reading of your other posts I saw you compare the loss of treble in the HiFiMan to the loss of treble in the HD650. You suggested getting (I think) an AKG701 or something which I guess is considered more true to the source source file? I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic or not, since they are both pretty ludicrously expensive headphones and it might have been more of your satire. Unfortunately I do own the HD650, and I've seen the k702 (black 701) on ebay for half price...

Anyway, my questions are

*

Is HD650 really losing higher frequencies? I enjoy violin and female vocals, so this is important to me.

Is K701/2 a better phone in terms of faithfulness to the track?

Are the losses actually audible, or is it something almost no one would notice even with both phones?

*

Thanks a lot for your time. I do like my HD650s since they're very comfortable (why do companies need 500 dollars just to make something comfortable...) but I do wonder if they are not what one might call neutral. Being a lurker of HydrogenAudio, I've come to be very skeptical about all audio equipment, and just started assuming the biggest difference between headphones was their comfort and their type (circumaural, open, earbuds, IEMs... etc). It'll disappoint me if my HD650s are not so faithful to music, but I guess getting ripped off is a part of life.

[CrowdAds]

[WalkGood]

I know you are waiting for dfkt’s specific response, but thought I’d chime in and comment on your skepticism about all audio equipment. Sure there’s a lot of rip offs out there, but there’s certainly good equipment too. And to say that there is not a difference between headphones aside from comfort and shape is not correct. If that was the case, why not just buy the least expensive ones and call it a day …

I honestly do not understand your point “Unfortunately I do own the HD650” . My view is I’m happy as a pig in mud that I own them and I like how vocals and violins sound on mine. If you want a little reading till dfkt returns to reply, you can read my short opinion on the hd650s here beyond their comfort and fit. There's also a link there for a huge appreciation thread with lots more reading.

[Chef]

I agree they sound good (they better for that $), but the point is whether or not they are entirely missing sounds that I should be hearing (or if the higher frequencies are not as loud, relatively, as they should be). I say unfortunate because I would feel ripped if something that advertised itself as reference (which I took to mean accurate reproduction) where actually colouring my music as cheaply as an equalizer could.

My comment about audio equipment of course has a threshold. The cheapest of the cheapest will break easily, wear easily, etc etc because they are using substandard materials. But I don't think you have to pay that much to get to a point where they start using standards.

[WalkGood]

Well we all hear differently and what I like or may not like is probably different than what you or others like or hear. I don’t put any weight on the marketing hype that these companies use and IMO the only true “reference” is a live performance, most companies seem to lay on the bull/hype thick as a brick. Oh and when they state “audiophile” run, as that’s just more hype too, lol. As far as coloring your music, your ears should be the best judge if they do or don’t and if you told me they were for you I’d say too bad as I enjoy mine and for my taste there’s nothing like a good equalizer to fine tune things to how I like them best, but I must admit I do use EQ sparingly and normally use the - values versus the + on most frequency bands that I may change.

[Satellite_6]

I don't find the 650s to be very flat at all but they certainly aren't lacking in the mids-highs IMO. No one else seems to fell the same way though. Maybe I'm crazy.

[BattleBrat]

I have the HD650's and PROPERLY amped, you WILL NOT be disappointed with them, or their highs, or lows, or anything for that matter, they MIGHT be a TAD bass heavy (a small tad) for some folk but I didn't have any problems with mine and I like my bass tight and controlled. They beat the crap out of most of my phones, cept the HD800's and a pair of CD3000's I had back in the day.

[Chef]

Everything is relative, the point was to compare them to the K701/2 in terms of overall faithfulness. At times on the HD650s I feel like the bass is overwhelming the rest of the song, and so I either have to wonder if it's just that the bass is badly mastered, or if it's the headphones (and maybe just the fact that they are circumaural). It seems to have trouble especially with JRock, which sounds just fine on my 50 CAD earphones (which I got at Radioshack anyway, so I was clearly ripped off). JRock (at least the stuff I like) is driven heavily by the high pitched wail of the guitars and the singer, which just doesn't sound right on my HD650...

I'm not really interested in what you have to say about amps :S 29 mW is enough to make them heard across the room, and I don't get any distortion. I'm asking dtfk because I don't want Head-fi nonsense lol.

[dfkt]

I don't like the K701 at all, so I'm probably not the most unbiased person to compare them to the HD650. To me the K701 sound thin, shrill, empty, and definitely not "faithful" to how any recording should sound. They omit to accommodate some parts of the human equal-loudness-contour (bass), and exaggerate others (treble). They're probably great for some monitoring applications and finding flaws in a recording, but I really couldn't enjoy listening to music on them. To me they fake clarity and precision by sounding so thin and sharp - but comparing them directly to the HD650 shows that they really don't deliver more in that aspect, but rather lack in substance, and the HD650 delivers every treble nuance and detail the K701 is capable of. Of course some people prefer such a sound signature over the HD650's - but for me the HD650 is definitely the more natural sounding phone.

[Chef]

Thanks very much for your reply

the HD650 delivers every treble nuance and detail the K701 is capable of.

This was my biggest concern. Hopefully one day I will get to try the 701 for myself, but this is enough reason to save my money for now I think. It's vaguely possible that since the 701 is more popular in Japan, the person who masters the song is listening thru that, rather than Senns, so my issues may indeed be with that end.

Thanks again.

[Spk282]

I could be wrong but I thought almost everyone mastering songs used studio monitors not headphones...

[dfkt]

Yeah, in professional recording studios headphones are certainly only used for double-checking stuff (or closed phones for live monitoring), never for final mixing/mastering. At least in the studios I've been.

[Chef]

I'm a victim of marketing then, I suppose :O I read things like 'trusted by professionals and used by recording artists' and assume it has something to do with the production process. I guess I have been mislead and they just mean 'technically they've used it one time or another but not really.'

Bawww. What can I say? I'm a consumer, and education is hard to come by

[EddieE]

I have both the K702 (a month or so) and HD650 (a good few months now) and like them both a lot.

HD650 are not neutral because neutrality is not the be all and end all of audio. There is nothing wrong with boosted bass if it is done cleanly and smoothly like the HD650 does. This is not a defect - it is a choice Sennheiser made with this model and you either like it or you don't.

The K702 has a wider soundstage and a more neutral bass response and has a colder sound as opposed to HD650s warmer sound. There are things it does incredibly well, like when a chord resonates and then stops crisply, and electric guitars and female vocals, really I've never heard phones do female vocals so well as the K702. It has incredible clarity and cleaness and detail is easier to pick up on, that does not mean it shows "more" detail than the HD650 does.

There is not a single sound you will hear on the K702 you will not also hear on the HD650, it's just that the K702 has more of a prominence on the treble than the HD650 and often this is where little details will sit so they are amplified, of course those sounds are still there on there HD650, they just don't stand out so much.

I think they are equal phones for my tastes and just suit different moods. HD650 are for relaxation and K702 for really listening "into" and admiring a composition. My MS2i for excitement and waking up.