Ummm....please don't tell me THIS is the Spring Update?? (Zune 4.5)

[lem7]

Originally Posted by syst3m

Not every feature it tailored for every user. Btw your forgetting (currently unknown) bug fixes and Xvid. I know that I'm going to love both of those.

yeah ohh i forgot about Xvid btw what is "xvid natively on device"??.... OHH BUG FIXES?? REALLY??? YEAHHH!!!!! ok so yeah cant wait for Bug fixes!

[CrowdAds]

[erythro42]

Originally Posted by lip

Bitch all you want...would be nice if the bitching was in one thread...perhaps we start a complaint thread to keep it all centred in one area...every single thread regardless of the topic soon gets hijacked on this site now...

Yeah, I wouldn't mind that either. But to be fair, the topic title is pretty clear in stating the direction this particular thread would be going.

I don't think pointing out that complaining there are no bug fixes in an update that hasn't even dropped yet is a bit premature indicates you should be groveling at the feet of the Zune development team. But the speculation so far is based on very controlled releases of information to the "blogosphere". When hybrid cars first hit the scene, the news also didn't tend to cover exactly how many presets were available on the in-vehicle CD player, or if they had oversized cupholders.

A lot of the complaints are valid, but it is a bit childish to have an attitude of "well the update doesn't excite me, so it's a complete waste", because it ignores all the other voices who've been clamoring for features that ARE included. Like XviD support. So on this particular board, complaints about expanded audio codec support might be both more frequent and louder than calls for expanded video support, but that's not exactly a scientific evaluation of how in-demand a feature like that is, or provide an argument with a reasonable foundation on whether or not the decision to develop that support was a good or bad decision.

While it's certainly appreciated having a Microsoft representative who will respond to complaints or explain certain decisions, in a way I think it gives people unreasonable expectations. Saying "the Zune HD should do this" isn't a magic bullet for setting that process in motion. You'll notice on any of the other boards there's not nearly as many repeated and constant calls for a simply absent feature, let's say in this case Custom EQ, on every page and nearly every post. In the void, people vent their frustrations, accept that it's simply a function of the device they chose to purchase, and move on.

The browser definitely has room for improvement, and I could see how the wi-fi thing could be a widespread problem due to how many campus networks are locking themselves down, but I find the calls for bug fixes interesting as well. I'm a new owner, but I have yet to experience any of them (to my knowledge.) Unfortunately, again, complaints on a message board don't necessarily serve as an indication that something is widespread (as those having problems are more likely to say so than people whose devices are working perfectly.)

So in essence, it doesn't appear to bode well for those suffering from show-stopping bugs or who are demanding improved features, but there's a certain tunnel vision and egocentricity required to believe that just because you, personally, want something, or even belong to a group that does, that it somehow immediately justifies sparing no expense or time when it comes to addressing those needs.

What I mean is, let's imagine that 5% of Zune HD owners want custom EQ, and that is somehow as easy to implement as people seem to think. Is that enough of a percentage of unsatisfied consumers to justify it? What about 10%? What about 3%? Now apply those same numbers to bugs. What about 1%, is that enough? Is 2%?

Now what if a much larger percentage wanted a separate feature, like XviD, even if you're not among that group? If 50% of owners want XviD support and 35% want custom EQ, would you still be angry? In that case are you claiming your need takes precedence?

Personally, I want OGG Vorbis and in a perfect world, Theora. I imagine I belong to a very, very small group of users who want those features. In that respect a lot of these other suggestions don't interest me. Custom EQ? Don't care. Wi-fi security? Don't need it yet. My Zune HD doesn't freeze, and while the browser isn't fantastic, I really only ever use it to check my Gmail or look up directory information. As for notes, I'm oldschool analog, I carry a pen and notebook. Three notebooks, actually. I think the Picks and Smart DJ will be great features for mixing up my music on the go.

Now let's picture a scenario where instead of things I like, they addressed all of YOUR concerns. So there's custom EQ, a better browser, no freezes anymore, and updated wi-fi. Also, a notes application. But no Smart DJ, and no XviD.

If I came in here and started bitching in a vehement fashion that the update was a complete waste, would you feel I was being reasonable?

What about if instead I came in and said, "Hey guys, it sounds like they've addressed a few of your suggestions, but I'm disappointed because I really wanted Vorbis and XviD. Here's hoping for the next update."

I'm not advocating a "if you don't like it here, why don't you just move to Canada/China/Whatever" attitude, but there comes a certain point where if your disappointment is so crushing, you should probably cut your losses. In some cases, there are other players that meet almost all of your expectations. But I'm assuming there are also flaws with those products, or you would have purchased one. So if there's no perfect player out there, it's a bit melodramatic to expect the Zune HD to be everything to everyone, despite its future potential.

If I was this disappointed in a device, I'd probably sell it and get a Samsung P3 or Cowon, despite their other flaws (software, UI, etc.) If at some later point the Zune HD implemented those must-have features that I really want, I'd always have the option of picking one up later. And considering how quickly technology moves on, you could probably even do so for a song.

[lem7]

^ nice essay

[erythro42]

Originally Posted by lem7

^ nice essay

You know what they say: "Brevity is the soul of wit."

[ZuneHD]

Originally Posted by Machiventa

Point taken and I agree but it gets very tiring to constantly see people bitching about what they want, what they expect, what they're not getting, etc.

And thats the thing; if people are complaining this much, something is wrong. Some people like to complain in general about everything. However, a lot of the complaining here has merit to it. Bug fixes should come out as soon as possible, not wait till a major release. Now I understand your frustration with this (especially since everybody has different opinions) but that still indicates Microsoft needs to step up their game.

Here is an experience I would like passed down to the Marketing team: I was riding the bus home from school last week and one of the kids on the bus saw me listening to my Zune HD. He sat next to me and said this "wow that is so sexy! Isn't that the um...new iPod HD?" Those were his EXACT words. I turned around and began explaining it to him. He thought the device looked super awesome, but of course asked about YouTube (I try to keep people from bringing this up) and you can imagine were it went from there...Point is he thought this was called an iPod HD! How is that acceptable from any company's standards? Granted you can't target every individual in the US and get them to recognize it, but still some more advertisement couldn't hurt could it?

----------

A lot of the complaints are valid, but it is a bit childish to have an attitude of "well the update doesn't excite me, so it's a complete waste", because it ignores all the other voices who've been clamoring for features that ARE included. Like XviD support. So on this particular board, complaints about expanded audio codec support might be both more frequent and louder than calls for expanded video support, but that's not exactly a scientific evaluation of how in-demand a feature like that is, or provide an argument with a reasonable foundation on whether or not the decision to develop that support was a good or bad decision.

I have not heard a single person request smart DJ on the device prior to the announcement. However, people did ask for expanded codec support and I believe everybody here benefits from that (nobody has complained about that).

While it's certainly appreciated having a Microsoft representative who will respond to complaints or explain certain decisions, in a way I think it gives people unreasonable expectations. Saying "the Zune HD should do this" isn't a magic bullet for setting that process in motion. You'll notice on any of the other boards there's not nearly as many repeated and constant calls for a simply absent feature, let's say in this case Custom EQ, on every page and nearly every post. In the void, people vent their frustrations, accept that it's simply a function of the device they chose to purchase, and move on.

Well when a product is labeled as a "premium media device" then people expect certain things. Most dedicated media devices have a custom EQ so it is very reasonable to expect that. The other reason you don't see this much complaining on other boards could be because the device actually satisfies more of the people there. People don't scream bloody murder from custom EQ on the iPod Touch because it isn't marketed as a "premium media device" therefor people don't expect it to be so.

The browser definitely has room for improvement, and I could see how the wi-fi thing could be a widespread problem due to how many campus networks are locking themselves down, but I find the calls for bug fixes interesting as well. I'm a new owner, but I have yet to experience any of them (to my knowledge.) Unfortunately, again, complaints on a message board don't necessarily serve as an indication that something is widespread (as those having problems are more likely to say so than people whose devices are working perfectly.)

I agree with you on the internet comments. Concerning the bugs; you must be very lucky. The screen locking up after listening to music while the screen is shut down is EXTREMELY common (most people with a Zune HD on this board can comment on this).

So in essence, it doesn't appear to bode well for those suffering from show-stopping bugs or who are demanding improved features, but there's a certain tunnel vision and egocentricity required to believe that just because you, personally, want something, or even belong to a group that does, that it somehow immediately justifies sparing no expense or time when it comes to addressing those needs.

If "I" personally want something that I paid $220 dollars for I will speak up about it wherever I want.

What I mean is, let's imagine that 5% of Zune HD owners want custom EQ, and that is somehow as easy to implement as people seem to think. Is that enough of a percentage of unsatisfied consumers to justify it? What about 10%? What about 3%? Now apply those same numbers to bugs. What about 1%, is that enough? Is 2%?

Now what if a much larger percentage wanted a separate feature, like XviD, even if you're not among that group? If 50% of owners want XviD support and 35% want custom EQ, would you still be angry? In that case are you claiming your need takes precedence?

Your numbers are horribly skewed. There is a far bigger percentage than 10% that would like a custom EQ. The thing about custom EQ is that it can benefit everybody, as well as XviD. I can understand people still being angry (people will always be angry) if their feature is not implemented, but we have YET to see anything in this update that truly benefits everybody aside from the XviD support.

Personally, I want OGG Vorbis and in a perfect world, Theora. I imagine I belong to a very, very small group of users who want those features. In that respect a lot of these other suggestions don't interest me. Custom EQ? Don't care. Wi-fi security? Don't need it yet. My Zune HD doesn't freeze, and while the browser isn't fantastic, I really only ever use it to check my Gmail or look up directory information. As for notes, I'm oldschool analog, I carry a pen and notebook. Three notebooks, actually. I think the Picks and Smart DJ will be great features for mixing up my music on the go.

And thats good for you, but a majority of people want something else. Companies should make their decisions based on majority (or money of course) rather than what one person wants. Most people on these boards have requested other features than what has been demonstrated so far.

Now let's picture a scenario where instead of things I like, they addressed all of YOUR concerns. So there's custom EQ, a better browser, no freezes anymore, and updated wi-fi. Also, a notes application. But no Smart DJ, and no XviD.

If they did that then I would be happy and I'm sure a lot more people would be happy then what has been shown so far. Everything you listed is basically WHAT EVERYONE IS ASKING FOR. Who doesn't want a better browser? Who doesn't want updated wi-fi? Who DOESN'T want no more freezes? Do you see where I'm going? Those things are very beneficial to the device. I would gladly trade XviD and Smart DJ (I didn't care for this to begin with) for that update you listed (as well as some others I hope).

If I came in here and started bitching in a vehement fashion that the update was a complete waste, would you feel I was being reasonable?

Yes because you have the right to complain, but one voice isn't heard among a dozen. When one person complains about something not many people care, but when a majority of the people complain it becomes an evident problem.

What about if instead I came in and said, "Hey guys, it sounds like they've addressed a few of your suggestions, but I'm disappointed because I really wanted Vorbis and XviD. Here's hoping for the next update."

Again, thats fine.

I'm not advocating a "if you don't like it here, why don't you just move to Canada/China/Whatever" attitude, but there comes a certain point where if your disappointment is so crushing, you should probably cut your losses. In some cases, there are other players that meet almost all of your expectations. But I'm assuming there are also flaws with those products, or you would have purchased one. So if there's no perfect player out there, it's a bit melodramatic to expect the Zune HD to be everything to everyone, despite its future potential.

I researched this device before I got it. I read every scrap of information I could find and read just about every review written. Multiple accounts stated there would be app support, a advertisement clearly mentioned 3D gaming as a feature of the device and it was supposed to be a "premium media device" therefor I based my purchase off of that. I can vent from opinions because not much of those claims have been met. Hopefully with the beginning of WP7 out of the way (not entirely) we will see more effort put fourth into the Zune HD.

If I was this disappointed in a device, I'd probably sell it and get a Samsung P3 or Cowon, despite their other flaws (software, UI, etc.) If at some later point the Zune HD implemented those must-have features that I really want, I'd always have the option of picking one up later. And considering how quickly technology moves on, you could probably even do so for a song.

Except by selling it now I would lose probably $50-$100 dollars and if I were to buy it later I would just be losing more money which makes no sense in my mind (losing money = bad).

[lem7]

Im complaining becase:
#1) Everyone is complaining and still MSFT dont give a rat's ass
#2) Zune HD has a great amount of potential but MSFT doesn't care
#3) No XNA 4.0
4) MISC
-Apps take 10 seconds to load <-- wtf is up with this
-No Youtube app/Cant watch online videos
-Browser is SO PLAIN
-Bugs
-No apps, Not even calendar or contact...
-Need better Cover flow

[erythro42]

Originally Posted by ZuneHD

Point is he thought this was called an iPod HD! How is that acceptable from any company's standards? Granted you can't target every individual in the US and get them to recognize it, but still some more advertisement couldn't hurt could it?

This is actually fairly common when a single product or company dominates a particular market. In practice, it's something that does more harm to the dominant product rather than competitors, because it weakens their brand (because if consumers can't see what's so distinct about their product, their market share can decline) and introduces the possibility of losing control of their trademark protections. So really, it's something Apple should be addressing and doesn't really do Microsoft any harm.

Examples: "Xerox" machines, "Kleenex" tissues, "Band-aid" adhesive strips, "Aspirin" painkillers, "Thermos" liquid containers, zippers, yo-yos, and even escalators. You get the idea.

[cvtele]

Originally Posted by erythro42

If I was this disappointed in a device, I'd probably sell it and get a Samsung P3 or Cowon, despite their other flaws (software, UI, etc.) If at some later point the Zune HD implemented those must-have features that I really want, I'd always have the option of picking one up later. And considering how quickly technology moves on, you could probably even do so for a song.

Not speaking for everyone but for me I love the hardware. It has so much potential that is not being utilized. Its like if your favorite band just stopped playing, you'd be disappointed and frustrated because you know they can make great music. Or if their next album was a bunch of Hanna Montanna covers, you'd be disappointed and complain a lot.

[ZuneHD]

Originally Posted by erythro42

This is actually fairly common when a single product or company dominates a particular market. In practice, it's something that does more harm to the dominant product rather than competitors, because it weakens their brand (because if consumers can't see what's so distinct about their product, their market share can decline) and introduces the possibility of losing control of their trademark protections. So really, it's something Apple should be addressing and doesn't really do Microsoft any harm.

Examples: "Xerox" machines, "Kleenex" tissues, "Band-aid" adhesive strips, "Aspirin" painkillers, "Thermos" liquid containers, zippers, yo-yos, and even escalators. You get the idea.

I think it does Microsoft harm because when somebody goes to buy this you know where there going? The Apple store or the iPod section. I could be wrong, but that is just what happens in my head when I think about it.

Not speaking for everyone but for me I love the hardware. It has so much potential that is not being utilized. Its like if your favorite band just stopped playing, you'd be disappointed and frustrated because you know they can make great music. Or if their next album was a bunch of Hanna Montanna covers, you'd be disappointed and complain a lot.

Good analogy and I 100% agree with you about the hardware.

[erythro42]

Originally Posted by ZuneHD

And thats the thing; if people are complaining this much, something is wrong. Some people like to complain in general about everything. However, a lot of the complaining here has merit to it.

Those are two possibly related but different concepts. "If people are complaining this much, something is wrong." isn't a very logical statement, because it provides little to no evidence. Imagine a Fox News (or MSNBC) audience poll. If people are complaining this much, something must be wrong right? Perhaps Obama really is Hitler, or Karl Rove really does drink the blood of small children. Except that you have to consider whether or not a sample is representative or large enough. Like I said, is there data that 10% of users share these opinions/experience these bugs? 20%? 2%?

Originally Posted by cvtele

Not speaking for everyone but for me I love the hardware. It has so much potential that is not being utilized. Its like if your favorite band just stopped playing, you'd be disappointed and frustrated because you know they can make great music. Or if their next album was a bunch of Hanna Montanna covers, you'd be disappointed and complain a lot.

Right, except for that example to be analogous the Zune HD would have had to at one point have all these features people are asking for, and then have removed them at some later date or implemented changes that diminish their value. Like if every time they added an application your sound quality decreased.

Or you could have really thought the Clash should have added more cowbell, but those bastards kept fooling around with reggae instead. And "Sandanista" doesn't really affect my ability to enjoy "London Calling".

It's not a wise practice to purchase an album based on the music a band may make in the future, right? It's probably better to wait it out and see if they start making better music (recognizing the subjectivity of that statement.) And if their new albums suck but most people seem to like it, then you might just be outside the target market. Personally, I think Radiohead peaked with "Pablo Honey". Zing!

Which isn't going to stop me from bitching about Weezer or U2, but I probably also wouldn't spend much time in Weezer or U2 forums in search of evidence that they plan to stop sucking sometime in the near future.

But really, U2 needs to cool it with the synthesizers.

[Icky6]

Originally Posted by Machiventa

Point taken and I agree but it gets very tiring to constantly see people bitching about what they want, what they expect, what they're not getting, etc. - I think I'm still working out this horrible experience I had earlier with someone in my shop. Sorry guys. Carry on!

Lulz. I know there is a lot of complaining and I personally try my best to be reasonable and constructive in my part in it. Sorry, I understand this must get tiring to see! Hopefully MS will take notice though.

[ZuneHD]

Those are two possibly related but different concepts. "If people are complaining this much, something is wrong." isn't a very logical statement, because it provides little to no evidence. Imagine a Fox News (or MSNBC) audience poll. If people are complaining this much, something must be wrong right? Perhaps Obama really is Hitler, or Karl Rove really does drink the blood of small children. Except that you have to consider whether or not a sample is an representative or large enough. Like I said, is there data that 10% of users share these opinions/experience these bugs? 20%? 2%?

Well if there was a poll obviously it isn't referring to everyone (just as I'm not referring to everyone). A poll refers to the people who took it and if the negative percentages are higher than it is fairly clear that people expected something different. Karl Rove drinking small children's blood is much different to what I'm talking about. I am referencing peoples various complaints about a specific device, not whether or not (yes/no) somebody does this/that.

Targeted towards the "you have to consider": I believe the sample here is large enough. 1. A lot of it is here because we know a microsoft employee visits these forums and 2. People on the official Zune Forums share the same reactions (a majority) and what else am I to go by? These are the only opinions I can reference as I'm not going to track down every Zune HD owner and ask for their opinion to compile a comprehensive data set for everyone.

[erythro42]

Originally Posted by ZuneHD

Well if there was a poll obviously it isn't referring to everyone (just as I'm not referring to everyone). A poll refers to the people who took it and if the negative percentages are higher than it is fairly clear that people expected something different.

I understand, I just wanted to make a joke about Karl Rove and his vampiric tendencies in regard to the precious candy syrup pumping through the veins of our nation's youth.

You may be right, it's just hard to expect a company to adjust their strategies based purely on internet forums. However, if the complaints are really that widespread, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea for a company to investigate further.

[Strider_Aus]

Originally Posted by erythro42

Which isn't going to stop me from bitching about Weezer or U2, but I probably also wouldn't spend much time in Weezer or U2 forums in search of evidence that they plan to stop sucking sometime in the near future.

Nice 1. Hahahahah LOL this thread is fun.

Once we get the new update, someone here with the passion should collate all the requests for features/updates/fixes (minus whatever we do get in the update) and put them into a nice table.

Then we could post this table at abi, and ask Dave-MS to rank them in such a way that we can manage a little better the expectations and hopes of all the serious (and vocal) Zune fans here. Now we know Dave can't actually confirm exactly what may or may not come to Zune later on, but as seen by the Yager 4.5 firmware video preview at engadget - he provides broad feedback on at least one area - mac compatibility.

His reply to this was something like, "...we focus on MS Windows, we have a Windows device.....Mac support is not a priorty for us moving forward."

Now in Sales speak that says "No F^%$íng way will we do anything on that when we have Zune <now> and WP7 <coming> Yay MS all the way!" lol.

Dave - Your Team Lead Zune right - so you could reply against each item in the table say as follows:

- Not currently working on this = Might be nice idea, but no resourcing
- Not aligned to our Zune HD vision = no chance.
- Can't give you any specific feedback on this = Work underway for future update
- In consideration for MS attention = feature we would like to roll-out, nothing firm however.

These are examples only....It gives us something more to go by, but promises nothing from MS.

And on the topic of Apps - given the sheer number of threads/posts here, having some feedback of where MS sees itself in terms of proprietary apps as a % vs existing total available would help manage expectations a little. For example, in 6m MS would like to see a 25% increase in Zune HD supported apps (that would mean a target increase of about 4 apps). Or by release of the WP7 series, we would like to have grown our Zune HD apps marketplace by 75-150%

Both of these actions would go a long way to managing the expectations of all the Zune fans (and detractors) here - and would give you a framework to refresh/update periodically that might save heaps of thread reply repetition as well as NOT hold MS to any specific promise that can satisfy your PR team and S&M strategies, partners etc.

What do you think Dave ?

[Stujoe]

Originally Posted by lem7

-Apps take 10 seconds to load <-- wtf is up with this

My guess? Maybe it isn't a good device for apps? I have wondered why it took so long to load a calculator app and the only thing I could come up with is that it isn't a good device for apps. It can do them but was not designed, or not designed well, to do them.

[lem7]

Yeah but games/apps runs flawlessly and it has a NVIDIA tegra yet it takes a really long time to load apps, weird.... it is a good app device; but if apps run laggy/no 3D then yeah ZuneHD isn't an app device, but its not the case.

[ZuneHD]

Originally Posted by Stujoe

My guess? Maybe it isn't a good device for apps? I have wondered why it took so long to load a calculator app and the only thing I could come up with is that it isn't a good device for apps. It can do them but was not designed, or not designed well, to do them.

the conclusion that I have come to is lazy programming within the OS. We know the Zune HD is capable of running apps, but the Zune HD is based off of the older Zune software (same startup for apps on the older devices) and wasn't properly (or completly) updated to account for the inclusion of apps. I thoroughly believe that if Microsoft really wanted to get rid of this they could, but it would take time.

[DoomRoot13]

You Tube

You Tube

if you take a look at the main menu on the device and the tv screen in this video you'll notice a menu item for podcasts, so it seems that we will be getting the ability to subscribe watch and download new podcasts straight from the device

[Stujoe]

That would be great but I don't think I am seeing what you are seeing? My Main Menu has always had Podcasts both on the player and on the TV out.

[lem7]

... Dude seriously if MSFT made the ability to download podcast on the device itself... Then omfg I'll be the happiest ZuneHD owner, but if they also realease YouTube app too, MSFT you won't believe my happiness to you guys!!! So MSFT make this little boy happy he got a ZuneHD