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  #541  
Old 06-05-2010, 12:05 PM
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What?
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  #542  
Old 06-05-2010, 12:20 PM
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I think the reason the thread is closed is because the AMS rockbox is working nearly perfectly. My clip gets a ton of use, at least 30-40 hours a week and i have yet to have a crash/problems since the last time i updated the fw about a month ago.
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  #543  
Old 06-05-2010, 01:44 PM
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epithetless epithetless is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adub View Post
I think the reason the thread is closed is because the AMS rockbox is working nearly perfectly. My clip gets a ton of use, at least 30-40 hours a week and i have yet to have a crash/problems since the last time i updated the fw about a month ago.
I tend to believe the thread was closed for exactly the reason funman stated: Little development has been taking place there for some time. m_k, that doesn't -- at all -- mean development on the AMS players has stopped. It still continues in IRC (where most of the Rockbox development happens anyway), but because the forum thread had transformed from a place for development (as it was designed to be) into a general discussion thread, funman locked it.

I do think the listing of working/non-working product codes may have some value...Perhaps you could duplicate what was previously posted over there in a new thread here which users can then freely add to?
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  #544  
Old 06-05-2010, 01:55 PM
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m_k, you sound like a crazy person. How about actually USING Rockbox on the Clip+ before you post completely irrelevant and paranoid nonsense about DRM, the official firmware, and whatnot? Enough of that crap, this thread is about Rockbox on the Clip+, not some retarded conspiracy theories. And Rockbox on the Clip+ works perfectly well already.
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  #545  
Old 06-05-2010, 05:25 PM
Mikerman Mikerman is offline
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With all due respect, indeed odd that the Rockbox thread was closed (erroneously?). The port still is in development, and development still is avidly taking place (despite what was posted at the thread). IMHO, there is no reason to close it, including so that people can keep up-to-date and post issues, etc.
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  #546  
Old 06-05-2010, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by epithetless View Post
I tend to believe the thread was closed for exactly the reason funman stated: Little development has been taking place there for some time. m_k, that doesn't -- at all -- mean development on the AMS players has stopped. It still continues in IRC (where most of the Rockbox development happens anyway), but because the forum thread had transformed from a place for development (as it was designed to be) into a general discussion thread, funman locked it.
My point was development has slowed due to the AMS rockbox builds reaching a plateau where they work so effectively that heavy development isn't as needed, and as you stated yes most of the work is done in IRC anyways.

Quote:
m_k, you sound like a crazy person.
I second that as that post was completely nonsensical, full of random assumptions with no base in reality.

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Originally Posted by Mikerman View Post
With all due respect, indeed odd that the Rockbox thread was closed (erroneously?). The port still is in development, and development still is avidly taking place (despite what was posted at the thread). IMHO, there is no reason to close it, including so that people can keep up-to-date and post issues, etc.
The thread was yielding no useful information and the same repeated problems OVER AND OVER AND OVER again does not help and just frustrates devs. People can continue to post issues with rockbox here as funman and crew check here often.
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  #547  
Old 06-05-2010, 05:50 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m_k View Post
I bought one of those refurbed Clip+ players on Woot, assuming that Rockbox was nearly completed for the AMS Sansas, but when I looked at the thread for this series on the Rockbox forum, I noticed that it had been closed because "not much development happened here for some time" (with a suggestion that if anyone wants to help with development, they get with them via IRC or a mailing list).
Before a port is started people mostly talk about starting it in the forums. Once it starts and lots of people are working on it, development usually moves to IRC and the New Ports thread is typically closed. See for example almost every other rockbox port.
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  #548  
Old 06-05-2010, 06:38 PM
Hinrik Hinrik is offline
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dfkt / Timar: Your experiments with increased volume are interesting. I really like the build with the 0x1b volume settings. I asked funman about changing it to 0x1b by default and he had this to say:

Code:
<literal> funman: any chance that the change by Timar/dfkt which increases volume (to 0x1b) on the Clip+ will be incorporated?
<literal> it brings the maximum volume much closer to what the OF can do
<literal> without clipping
<funman> literal: the current value is bound to dB range (-73 to 6) i think so unless someone calculates the new ranges and checks that it's still somehow linear it'll just stay that way
<funman> which volume the OF does use is not a reference - we don't care about the OF
Is this something that you two could do?
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  #549  
Old 06-05-2010, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saratoga View Post
See for example almost every other rockbox port.
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  #550  
Old 06-06-2010, 01:36 AM
Mikerman Mikerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adub View Post
The thread was yielding no useful information and the same repeated problems OVER AND OVER AND OVER again does not help and just frustrates devs. People can continue to post issues with rockbox here as funman and crew check here often.
With all due respect, closing the development thread to comments, including from users, and relegating comments to a separate board, is not the most constructive of means by which to proceed, it seems to me. And developments still are proceeding, apace. Witness the recent button assignments for the Clip port. It seems to me that the ideal place for reporting issues on that is in the Rockbox forums. But hey, what do I know--I'm just a Clip and Rockbox user and contributor.
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  #551  
Old 06-06-2010, 04:53 AM
funman funman is offline
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The thread didn't really help anymore for development (it was already very long and filling faster every day), I think it's better if users use irc / bug tracker instead.

I might not have been very clear in my first post but in my defense i did not have a lot of time to sleep at rockbox devconeuro

Of course that doesn't mean development will stop don't worry
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  #552  
Old 06-06-2010, 05:38 AM
Timar Timar is offline
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@dfkt: thanks for the build. I've made my own including the volume patch. I'm a little bit concerned, however, on the increasing amount of modifications I have to add to the build...

I doubt that most users really feel that the new keymap is an improvement. We have some opposite view here. Many people actually think that the volume on Clip+ is way too low with rockbox. This:
Quote:
<funman> which volume the OF does use is not a reference - we don't care about the OF
isn't an argument IMHO. If volume is considered being too low, it is too low, regardless of the original firmware. Besides, the OF will always be the natural benchmark. If people rockbox their Clip+ and notice that the max volume is much lower afterwards, they will complain and ask for the reason. Now dftk and I have figured out a volume level which resembles the OF and proven that it doesn't distort at all but the developers don't seem to care. The scale mentioned by funman is arbitrary anyway. I didn't notice any nonlinearities with the higher mix value and I can't imagine why it should cause any?

Regarding the close-down of the development thread: I see that it turned into some kind of bloated support thread, repeating the same questions over and over. Yet there have been some design decisions which should be subject to critical feedback and this step may give the impression that such kind of feedback is not welcome.

Last edited by Timar; 06-06-2010 at 05:47 AM.
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  #553  
Old 06-06-2010, 08:12 AM
funman funman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timar View Post
Many people actually think that the volume on Clip+ is way too low with rockbox.
Fine for me

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Originally Posted by Timar View Post
If volume is considered being too low, it is too low, regardless of the original firmware.
You're right, it's regardless of the original firmware so the OF doesn't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timar View Post
Now dftk and I have figured out a volume level which resembles the OF and proven that it doesn't distort at all but the developers don't seem to care. The scale mentioned by funman is arbitrary anyway. I didn't notice any nonlinearities with the higher mix value and I can't imagine why it should cause any?
Perhaps I didn't explicit enough but I know nothing about audio quality: I know that "distortion", "clipping", "linerarity", "decibels" are words but I only have vague ideas of what they mean.

Don't expect me to change something I don't understand.

I pointed you people to the piece code which matters so perhaps you could understand it but no one came yet with a patch and an explanation of what the change does exactly; and why the code has to be different from other Sansas using the same piece of code and the same audio registers.

Anyway if someone does it I wouldn't be able to approve it (the audio quality part at least) because I don't know what this is about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timar View Post
Yet there have been some design decisions which should be subject to critical feedback and this step may give the impression that such kind of feedback is not welcome.
Design decisions are at the discretion of the developers only, feedback is welcome of course and we have mailing lists, forum, irc that you can use.

Not a development forum which is intended for developers only.

The developers said the forum didn't help them and as one of them I completely agree.


If you want your voice to have any power in rockbox development I see only one way: start contributing and become one of the developers.
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  #554  
Old 06-06-2010, 08:18 AM
Mikerman Mikerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funman View Post
The thread didn't really help anymore for development (it was already very long and filling faster every day), I think it's better if users use irc / bug tracker instead.

I might not have been very clear in my first post but in my defense i did not have a lot of time to sleep at rockbox devconeuro

Of course that doesn't mean development will stop don't worry
Thanks for the note, funman. I think that many users (as distinct from developers) found the thread helpful for seeing how things were going with the port (and if they were!), at a glance, and as a place for posting user comments (similar to this thread).
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  #555  
Old 06-06-2010, 10:07 AM
Hirsch2k Hirsch2k is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adub View Post
I think the reason the thread is closed is because the AMS rockbox is working nearly perfectly.
Hm, had some crashes with .ape + cuesheets, which isn't a huge problem I think because that combination isn't very commonly used and had some crashes with vorbis about every 20 hours or so. But that also seems to be fixed since the 264xx builds.
USB support would be nice but since you can boot the OF it's an issue of convenience.
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  #556  
Old 06-06-2010, 10:24 AM
setmenu setmenu is offline
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I find the 0x1b volume mod does a great job and it helps a good deal to have the extra headroom when using EQ.[way better than the OF in this respect]
I guess depends on your phones music & listening level preferences etc as to whether its essential.
I cant detect any deleterious effects from this mod , so on the face of it including this setting as a standard rockbox clip feature would seem to make sense?

If not i guess I will have to try to get my head round cygwin etc

Anyway the above aside many thanks to all the developers for the hard work they have put into this project
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  #557  
Old 06-06-2010, 01:34 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funman View Post
Perhaps I didn't explicit enough but I know nothing about audio quality: I know that "distortion", "clipping", "linerarity", "decibels" are words but I only have vague ideas of what they mean.

Don't expect me to change something I don't understand.

I pointed you people to the piece code which matters so perhaps you could understand it but no one came yet with a patch and an explanation of what the change does exactly; and why the code has to be different from other Sansas using the same piece of code and the same audio registers.

Anyway if someone does it I wouldn't be able to approve it (the audio quality part at least) because I don't know what this is about.
This ended up split all over this thread, so I didn't even see until yesterday. Basically what the modified build seems to do is adjust the DAC/mixer volume to be 0dB for higher volumes (above -30 or 40dB IIRC). Some rmaa tests were posted which confirmed that theres no additional distortion:

http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/index...r=Comparisons/

See the "Clip+ - Rockbox Volume" comparisons, or just look at this one result:

http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Compa...2016%20Ohm.htm

As you can see the numbers for the 0dB result are very nearly the same as the OF, and the numbers for the 6dB result are very badly distorted, just as it should be since its well over 0dB.

In terms of volume:

Quote:
OF max -5.3dB

RB 0x16 0db -15.9dB
RB 0x16 6dB -10.1dB

RB 0x1b 0db -10.1dB
RB 0x1b 6dB -4.9dB
So basically, +6dB in the current build (which does not distort) becomes 0dB in the patch (which also does not distort). The new +6dB corresponds to actually over driving the amp, and does distort (but probably not enough to notice in real music verses a full scale test tone).

I copied this all to a new FS task so its in one place:

http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/11364
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  #558  
Old 06-06-2010, 01:43 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Also about distortion, its all tied into the theory of linear systems and transforms, but basically it quantifies how much nonlinearity there is in a system. If a system is perfectly linear, the adding two tones together produces an output with two tones (you hear 2 tones, there are two peaks in a spectrogram, etc). This is good. If its nonlinear, then you get nonlinear mixing, which is when two tones combine (or one tone combines with itself) to produce additional tones at new frequencies. This is bad. If one tone multiplies its frequency, then its harmonic distortion. If they add or subtract their frequencies, its inter-modulation distortion. Theres not much practical difference between the two, and they're more or less proportional in most systems.

We care about this because wires are always linear until they melt, so any nonlinearity comes from the amp. So to see if you can safely increase the output voltage (volume) of an amp, you can test for distortion. If there isn't any, then you're ok.

Clipping is what happens when you drive a voltage higher then it can go, either in an amp (analog) or in software (digital). The result is distortion. If a system is really good, all distortion is clipping.
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  #559  
Old 06-07-2010, 12:01 PM
anonxlg anonxlg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anonxlg View Post
does anyone know a theme for the playing screen that displays asian/unicode characters properly

also, i noticed that most of the themes are unfit for the clip+ screen, any recommendations on themes?
bumping unanswered question

a couple of more questions;
there's no hold function right?
when i try to force the battery meter to numberic, it never works, is this theme dependent?
people said the rockbox installer works with the clip+ now, does it just grab the latest svn build and load it?
is there a way to load the latest svn and keep settings intact

(not using latest rockbox)
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  #560  
Old 06-07-2010, 01:22 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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No, yes, yes, and yes. Skim the manual, its all in there.
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