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  #21  
Old 03-17-2010, 01:54 PM
erythro42 erythro42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Blackwheel View Post
Don't you think Microsoft released that information because people got "worked up."???? I do.
That doesn't really prove everyone getting worked up actually accomplished anything. Information related to features trickles out a bit at a time, and an unfortunate turn of phrase can incite unwarranted blog rebellion. Especially when a device hasn't even been released yet.

Here's a quote from a Wired article:

“We do not allow third-party applications running on the phone to execute in the background,” said Charlie Kindel, manager of Microsoft’s Windows Phone App Platform and Developer Experience program, in a phone interview with Wired.com. “We’re poised to support it eventually, but in order to support great battery life and great end-user experience, we’re focusing on the integrated experiences first.”

Read More http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/...#ixzz0iSb1fvIb

See that part where it says "poised to support it eventually"? Same as Flash. Same as copy/paste. You're already getting what you say you want. A petition seems redundant (since they're already working on these features), or at the very least premature, as you can simply avoid purchasing it until those features roll out.

In reality, when it comes to crafting these devices it's a game of balancing features and levels of customization with intuitive and consistent interfaces (since consistency adds a lot to an interface's ease-of-use. I like Linux, but different implementations can make the OS function in very different ways.) I'm not sure if "true customization" refers to how handset makers are now constrained to meet the hardware requirements and can't fully customize the interfaces anymore, but even if you don't agree with the device being "locked down", surely you can see how being "fully" customizable might fly in the face of the "intuitive and reliable user experience" that's also being demanded.

Still, far be it from me to suggest you shouldn't exercise your right to protest. Personally, I would recommend re-writing it at least, and providing more detail on what exactly constitutes true customization and an open, user-accessible file system, and why they're important.

Two of the small aforementioned errors are that the use of "can not" as two words when discussing supporting the Windows Phone 7 isn't incorrect, but it's unusual, and there's a confusion of "you're" and "your", when discussing Microsoft's "decision to neglect basic features." I probably also wouldn't capitalize the "Phones" in "Windows Phones" unless I was discussing something specific like "Windows Phone 7", but that may be a nitpick/personal preference.

I think we could probably also disagree on what constitutes a "basic" feature, and whether or not a user accessible "open" file system, "true" customization, or even SD card sideloading (not in the petition, but mentioned by one of the signers) of applications are basic features and crippling design decisions. Still, I absolutely support people voting with their dollars when it comes to demanding an enjoyable user-experience. It's just that even users don't always agree on what that means.

Last edited by erythro42; 03-17-2010 at 02:03 PM.
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  #22  
Old 03-17-2010, 01:56 PM
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Machiventa Machiventa is offline
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Why this topic should be be in Zune HD forums?
I don't see a problem with it unless another mod does but at least it's for a good laugh.
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  #23  
Old 03-17-2010, 02:03 PM
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lol I guess phones aren't Microsoft's strengths......
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  #24  
Old 03-17-2010, 02:14 PM
Blackwheel Blackwheel is offline
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Originally Posted by erythro42 View Post
That doesn't really prove everyone getting worked up actually accomplished anything. Information related to features trickles out a bit at a time, and an unfortunate turn of phrase can incite unwarranted blog rebellion. Especially when a device hasn't even been released yet.

Here's a quote from a Wired article:

“We do not allow third-party applications running on the phone to execute in the background,” said Charlie Kindel, manager of Microsoft’s Windows Phone App Platform and Developer Experience program, in a phone interview with Wired.com. “We’re poised to support it eventually, but in order to support great battery life and great end-user experience, we’re focusing on the integrated experiences first.”

Read More http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/...#ixzz0iSb1fvIb

See that part where it says "poised to support it eventually"? Same as Flash. Same as copy/paste. You're already getting what you say you want. A petition seems redundant (since they're already working on these features), or at the very least premature, as you can simply avoid purchasing it until those features roll out.



In reality, when it comes to crafting these devices it's a game of balancing features and levels of customization with intuitive and consistent interfaces (since consistency adds a lot to an interface's ease-of-use. I like Linux, but different implementations can make the OS function in very different ways.) I'm not sure if "true customization" refers to how handset makers are now constrained to meet the hardware requirements and can't fully customize the interfaces anymore, but even if you don't agree with the device being "locked down", surely you can see how being "fully" customizable might fly in the face of the "intuitive and reliable user experience" that's also being demanded.

Still, far be it from me to suggest you shouldn't exercise your right to protest. Personally, I would recommend re-writing it at least, and providing more detail on what exactly constitutes true customization and an open, user-accessible file system, and why they're important.

Two of the small aforementioned errors are that the use of "can not" as two words when discussing supporting the Windows Phone 7 isn't incorrect, but it's unusual, and there's a confusion of "you're" and "your", when discussing Microsoft's "decision to neglect basic features." I probably also wouldn't capitalize the "Phones" in "Windows Phones" unless I was discussing something specific like "Windows Phone 7", but that may be a nitpick/personal preference.

I think we could probably also disagree on what constitutes a "basic" feature, and whether or not a user accessible "open" file system, "true" customization, or even SD card sideloading (not in the petition, but mentioned by one of the signers) of applications are basic features and crippling design decisions. Still, I absolutely support people voting with their dollars when it comes to demanding an enjoyable user-experience. It's just that even users don't always agree on what that means.
Sure, there are a few things I'd like to change about the message, but the site doesn't let me change anything due to the fact that people have already signed. I can only add to the message. Nevertheless, it gets the point across.

Users might not always "agree" on what an enjoyable user-experience is, but the 700 people who have signed this petition agree that the features you don't seem to view as basic ones are major annoyances and deal breakers. So I don't see your problem here? What is the use of starting a petition after a device is released, that would just be too late. It's true, I can't prove that public opinion is changing anything, but what is the alternative? As I said before, voting with your wallet is too general a message to send in a situation like this one.

I do hope you're right in saying that these feature are on their way. I'd rather not wait silently though.
I do appreciate your input, I wish I could make those corrections.

Last edited by Blackwheel; 03-17-2010 at 02:26 PM.
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  #25  
Old 03-17-2010, 02:58 PM
erythro42 erythro42 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwheel View Post
Sure, there are a few things I'd like to change about the message, but the site doesn't let me change anything due to the fact that people have already signed. I can only add to the message. Nevertheless, it gets the point across.

Users might not always "agree" on what an enjoyable user-experience is, but the 700 people who have signed this petition agree that the features you don't seem to view as basic ones are major annoyances and deal breakers. So I don't see your problem here? What is the use of starting a petition after a device is released, that would just be too late. It's true, I can't prove that public opinion is changing anything, but what is the alternative? As I said before, voting with your wallet is too general a message to send in a situation like this one.

I do hope you're right in saying that these feature are on their way. I'd rather not wait silently though.
I do appreciate your input, I wish I could make those corrections.
No problem from me. If everyone had to agree with me, there wouldn't be much of a discussion on any topic. The internet would be like a really long, bad, boring novel I bang out on my lunch breaks. I respect when people feel strongly enough about a topic to pursue some sort of action in regard to it. I just reserve the right to energetically disagree and sometimes tease them about it. Which I expect for myself, as well (if you had made a petition regarding 100% BC on the 360 post-launch, I would have been all over it.)

I guess not being able to change it is to keep you from getting a bunch of signatures and then completely altering the message (throw a pro- or anti- in front of something, and poof!) Still, it's too bad there's not a sort of approval system for minor edits, or even a history function a la Wikipedia, but I guess that'd require some sort of moderator. Anyway, I don't think anyone will be confused about the intent.
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  #26  
Old 03-17-2010, 03:04 PM
aimran aimran is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuniq View Post
Why this topic should be be in Zune HD forums?
Because we're all hoping the Zune HD will get the same apps as WP7, but it doesn't look like that will happen.
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  #27  
Old 03-17-2010, 03:20 PM
Blackwheel Blackwheel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erythro42 View Post
No problem from me. If everyone had to agree with me, there wouldn't be much of a discussion on any topic. The internet would be like a really long, bad, boring novel I bang out on my lunch breaks. I respect when people feel strongly enough about a topic to pursue some sort of action in regard to it. I just reserve the right to energetically disagree and sometimes tease them about it. Which I expect for myself, as well (if you had made a petition regarding 100% BC on the 360 post-launch, I would have been all over it.)

I guess not being able to change it is to keep you from getting a bunch of signatures and then completely altering the message (throw a pro- or anti- in front of something, and poof!) Still, it's too bad there's not a sort of approval system for minor edits, or even a history function a la Wikipedia, but I guess that'd require some sort of moderator. Anyway, I don't think anyone will be confused about the intent.
Ya, I don't like this petition website that much, but I'm not going to throw away 700 signatures to start it elsewhere . I'm just hoping that this makes some noise at the very least. I realize that anything more than that is very unlikely, but I still hope it holds some weight.
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  #28  
Old 03-17-2010, 03:32 PM
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Spk282 Spk282 is offline
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I have to say WP7 is looking very promising... but wait till it comes out before you start complaining. A petition that will not sway the product one way or the other is meaningless. Microsoft isn't stupid, they know users want copy and paste and want to multitask, if they can find and implement a viable means of doing so they will.
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  #29  
Old 03-17-2010, 04:18 PM
DiNoGames DiNoGames is offline
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Don't you think your 700 signatures are just iPhone fanbois?
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  #30  
Old 03-17-2010, 04:21 PM
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Will someone please start a petition that petitions against this petition?
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  #31  
Old 03-17-2010, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnzoTen View Post
Will someone please start a petition that petitions against this petition?
Can we maybe start a petition to consider this petition request ?
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  #32  
Old 03-17-2010, 04:27 PM
DaveMac-MS DaveMac-MS is offline
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Just as a point of note - THIS is exactly the reason that as a general rule, we don't pre-announce Zune features/apps/games.

You guys get yourselves so worked up around a product or features that you haven't seen, and before you know it petitions get started, the crowd starts calling for firings, Microsoft is ridiculed, etc... Before long people who have no opinion on the matter start to get a negative impression about a product that nobody has yet even had the chance to examine in detail.

Enough of that goes on, and so the product team sighs, realizes that the rumours have gotten out of hand, and so have to pre-announce more than they wanted to quell the masses - but its either too late (the din of the crowd is too great) or only adds fuel to the fire ("see, our petition/mob mentality worked because Microsoft turned around and added the feature" - even though it would be impossible to magically "add" it in 24 hours so clearly it must have been planned for all along).

Rinse/repeat. Ugh...

And you guys want me to share release dates and app/game titles that are currently in development! Not a chance...

Cheers, Dave.
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  #33  
Old 03-17-2010, 04:36 PM
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*Sticks head in thread. Looks around. Slowly backs out.
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  #34  
Old 03-17-2010, 04:37 PM
Flyordie Flyordie is offline
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Dave, I am coming in to defend Zune again but, under a 3rd Party stance.

What we would appreciate is numbers.
You don't need details to make us happy. (or so I would think)
Things I would like to know is this-
-How many applications does Microsoft have in the pipe for Zune? (No specifics, just a number)
-Is FLASH/Silverlight in an open development platform* ever going to come to ZuneHD?
*much like how AMD/ATI/Intel are going with their open platform initiatives


If even just the first one was told, I am sure that would stave off alot of the app crap if its a good number... like say 5-10+. Now, I hope that doesn't seem like an attack on Zune but it honestly isn't. I am just trying to get some ideas.
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  #35  
Old 03-17-2010, 04:44 PM
clubdirthill clubdirthill is offline
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While "nerds" like us care about this, 99.99% of people don't. Multitasking is partially implemented, I could give a damn about the file system, and I don't mind that I can't throw out the beautiful UI; but the lack of C&P is regrettable. It is still a great product, and many of these things can come in a future update. Remember, it is only 18 months old and built from scratch.
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  #36  
Old 03-17-2010, 04:53 PM
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Dave your patience responding to all these sorts of threads is to be commended

nice1 gamers
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  #37  
Old 03-17-2010, 05:24 PM
Stujoe Stujoe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lip View Post
Just don't buy it...that's the best boycott...
That is the best boycott for sure. The biggest thing that will open or close my wallet on WP7 is if it does or does not have the Zune Pass and how close the music features are to the HD.

And as far as releasing information and the jumping to conclusions...that is the price companies, in today's instant information world, pay for drawing out release announcements in order to maximize press coverage. It is not going to change. lol
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  #38  
Old 03-17-2010, 06:00 PM
DiNoGames DiNoGames is offline
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I can't stop smiling... sorry This whole crap is so funny...
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  #39  
Old 03-17-2010, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Stujoe View Post
That is the best boycott for sure. The biggest thing that will open or close my wallet on WP7 is if it does or does not have the Zune Pass and how close the music features are to the HD.
Yep, confirmed by Joe Belfiore in a demo video here: http://ecn.channel9.msdn.com/o9/ch9/...Phone7_ch9.wmv - starting at 17:25 he goes into the marketplace and says if he's a Zune Pass subscriber he could start streaming a song
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  #40  
Old 03-17-2010, 07:43 PM
Olley Olley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS View Post
Rinse/repeat. Ugh... And you guys want me to share release dates and app/game titles that are currently in development! Not a chance... Cheers, Dave.
Don't give away release dates. Actually release something. Even Apple suffers the same fate when they announce an product (iPad) but don't actually release it for two months.
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