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  #21  
Old 02-15-2010, 11:13 PM
Blackwheel Blackwheel is offline
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The problem with Dave is (and this is not his fault) he can only go so far with his personal opinion. Also, he can't comment on or announce things that have not yet already been announced. I suspect, however, that he will love the new Windows Phone much more than the existing OS due to his owning an Iphone, and the new Windows Phone going for the same kind of model.

I'm a year away from buying a new phone. There's a lot that I like about Android, so it's currently my favorite choice. As much as I'd consider a Windows Phone, using the Zune HD has made me realize just how much I dislike using a device that doesn't support drag and drop, and requires a specific program for transferring files. So while the new Windows Phone model doesn't generally appeal to me, I do think that it's the right thing for MS to do in order to regain their competitiveness in this market.
Man, I can't tell you how much I am bothered by this. At first, I thought Windows Mobile 7 was going to be a drag and drop OS, but after today... I'm not sure.

It seems almost unbelievable that the new Windows Phones are not going to be able to communicate directly with Windows 7 without some middle man to facilitate the exchange. I hope that it does not turn out that way.
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  #22  
Old 02-15-2010, 11:17 PM
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Man, I can't tell you how much I am bothered by this. At first, I thought Windows Mobile 7 was going to be a drag and drop OS, but after today... I'm not sure.

It seems almost unbelievable that the new Windows Phones are not going to be able to communicate directly with Windows 7 without some middle man to facilitate the exchange. I hope that it does not turn out that way.
Supposedly, the new Windows Phone 7 will require Zune Software for all syncing, whereas the current WM 6.x uses Windows Mobile Device Center for Vista/7, and Active Sync for XP/Mac OS. But even though WM 6.5 requires WM Device Center, if I didn't want to sync Outlook, I could just plug it in as mass storage and do fine that way. It looks like Windows Phone 7 may not support this.
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  #23  
Old 02-15-2010, 11:27 PM
Blackwheel Blackwheel is offline
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I feel like Microsoft is taking some fire around here for imitating Apple's business model, but if they use the model as a guideline while maintaining their Windows Mobile openness, then the model could serve them well. Although I have never found any reason to purchase any Apple product, their business model for mobile devices has proved to be very successful and it is very logical. How much of that success is attributed to the image Apple has been advertising is a completely different story. The business model still stands as a very logical way to approach the market and I don't see a better method. That having been said, I am hoping Microsoft will be able to carry over the open spirit of Windows Mobile, one that enables end users to customize and developers to innovate. But I'm afraid that Microsoft might be headed down the proprietary alley, one of the biggest reason why I have avoided apple for so long.

In other words, Microsoft should imitate the Apple business model to a very shallow extent without forgetting Windows Mobile,
if that makes any sense whatsoever...
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  #24  
Old 02-15-2010, 11:29 PM
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Supposedly, the new Windows Phone 7 will require Zune Software for all syncing
A video I watched said the Zune software will be required for only music, video, and photos. They also mentioned Active Sync and also the device updating/syncing via cell service for all other non-media stuff. Would love to see more clarification on this.
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  #25  
Old 02-15-2010, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackwheel View Post
I feel like Microsoft is taking some fire around here for imitating Apple's business model, but if they use the model as a guideline while maintaining their Windows Mobile openness, then the model could serve them well. Although I have never found any reason to purchase any Apple product, their business model for mobile devices has proved to be very successful and it is very logical. How much of that success is attributed to the image Apple has been advertising is a completely different story. The business model still stands as a very logical way to approach the market and I don't see a better method. That having been said, I am hoping Microsoft will be able to carry over the open spirit of Windows Mobile, one that enables end users to customize and developers to innovate. But I'm afraid that Microsoft might be headed down the proprietary alley, one of the biggest reason why I have avoided apple for so long.

In other words, Microsoft should imitate the Apple business model to a very shallow extent without forgetting Windows Mobile,
if that makes any sense whatsoever...
I understand and agree with the reason MS is now doing what they're doing. If you think about it, Windows (desktop) has become a very closed platform, in terms of hardware. For example, Windows 7 32-bit ONLY works on the x86 instruction set, while Windows 7 64-bit works on EM64T and AMD64 only. For audio/video, the hardware absolutely has to be compliant with their DirectX API.

By comparison, Windows Mobile has been compiled for Arm 4, Arm 7, 8, 9, 11, Intel X-Scale, and numerous other CPUs and architectures. It's almost impossible to maintain a high degree of compatibility AND performance when you're OS is compiled for so many different chipsets. Don't get me started on how many graphics and audio chips it's had to support.

By locking it down, MS has a chance to show that OS in the best light possible. Even Google is now trying the same with Android, because they got tired of the splintered market. Pretty much every new Android-based handset coming out this year either uses Snapdragon, Qualcomm MSM, or Tegra 2.

I do hope that MS still leaves the software somewhat open, but they've all but confirmed the opposite. Supposedly, it requires the Zune Software to sync/transfer anything, no mass storage mode (which leaves me to believe no SD slot), and you can't even change the theme/UI. Yup, no moto blur, touch wiz, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machiventa View Post
A video I watched said the Zune software will be required for only music, video, and photos. They also mentioned Active Sync and also the device updating/syncing via cell service for all other non-media stuff. Would love to see more clarification on this.
That would irk me if the phone required both WM Device Center AND Zune Software. Now, if Zune software is optional, and the phone still allows for drag and drop music, or syncing via other software, that's fine with me. Like you, I want some clarification on this.
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  #26  
Old 02-15-2010, 11:45 PM
Blackwheel Blackwheel is offline
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Hopefully we get the option of drag/drop and the Zune Desktop client.

Even though the Zune desktop client might be really nice, in my eyes there is such a critical distinction between the software being integrated vs. being mandatory. I like ice cream cake, but if some guy came to my house every time I got hungry and shoved cake down my throat, then I wouldn't like it so much would I . It's just such an important distinction that I think is tough to comprehend/acknowledge from the point of view of a large business such as Microsoft.
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  #27  
Old 02-15-2010, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by tsupersonic View Post
Microsoft themselves have said the Zune HD is a media device, it's not meant to have the apps/features like an iPod Touch or Windows Phone 7 (hubs). The Zune HD isn't crippled in any way, it does what it's supposed to do, which is be a portable media player. The hardware is just fine for what it does.
I don't buy this. If it was a media device, it wouldn't have wifi, a browser, or apps at all. It isn't unreasonable to assume that people who buy a Zune HD expect it to be an alternative to the iPod Touch and that apps are a big part of it. And nobody except Microsoft is currently holding it back from achieving that potential.
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  #28  
Old 02-15-2010, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by dontkillants View Post
I don't buy this. If it was a media device, it wouldn't have wifi, a browser, or apps at all. It isn't unreasonable to assume that people who buy a Zune HD expect it to be an alternative to the iPod Touch and that apps are a big part of it. And nobody except Microsoft is currently holding it back from achieving that potential.
Zunes have always had Wifi, mainly for ad-hoc purposes. As for the browser and app support, I feel that MS had higher hopes, but the implementation was so half-backed, they backpedaled and said "media first." Like I said, it is what it is, regardless of how I feel about it.

The things that irked me the most about this being a media player is:
-How do you not include an external speaker for a device with video playback? I'm not going to share earbuds with someone just to show of a video.
-How do you claim it's a media device, offer internet connectivity, and then not support Youtube in any way, shape, or form? You don't mention internet media without bringing up Youtube!
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  #29  
Old 02-16-2010, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackwheel View Post
I feel like Microsoft is taking some fire around here for imitating Apple's business model, but if they use the model as a guideline while maintaining their Windows Mobile openness, then the model could serve them well. Although I have never found any reason to purchase any Apple product, their business model for mobile devices has proved to be very successful and it is very logical. How much of that success is attributed to the image Apple has been advertising is a completely different story. The business model still stands as a very logical way to approach the market and I don't see a better method. That having been said, I am hoping Microsoft will be able to carry over the open spirit of Windows Mobile, one that enables end users to customize and developers to innovate. But I'm afraid that Microsoft might be headed down the proprietary alley, one of the biggest reason why I have avoided apple for so long.

In other words, Microsoft should imitate the Apple business model to a very shallow extent without forgetting Windows Mobile,
if that makes any sense whatsoever...
I agree 100%.
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  #30  
Old 02-16-2010, 02:18 AM
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I personally believe that this is one step closer to the end of Zune hardware. I am sad
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  #31  
Old 02-16-2010, 02:33 AM
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I dont think it would kill it, itd probably be the nonphone option to have the "zune" or "win7" experience. Kinda like how the iphone and ipodtouch are like. The only way for the Zune hd to die, is if they stopped supporting it completely. But seeing as how the Win7phone will use the zune software, I dont think they would do that.
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  #32  
Old 02-16-2010, 03:09 AM
majg majg is offline
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It won't kill the Zune HD, per se, but one reason that I didn't jump for the HD was that it was supposed to be a prototype and nothing more. There's rumors of a second HD, but non after that.

Plus, there's several months before the new WP7 series devices show up. Which could mean further developments for our current HDs. I think we should be looking at the Zune Desktop Client, however... something tells me that that's getting a major overhaul.

I'm actually impressed with what I'm seeing from not just mobile, xbox and zune, but the E&D division as a whole.

MS will be able to leverage nearly 100 device/gaming users and 100's of millions of Windows Live users... which means good stuff for us down the road.

I was waiting for Zune/Xbox/WLive to be integrated. Now I can look forward to a new phone this year.

Android (Google, period) just scares me... if you think about how they make money, it's just downright scary wrt privacy. (oops, we didn't think about privacy again, when we released such and such app)
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  #33  
Old 02-16-2010, 09:29 AM
grunge100 grunge100 is offline
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Originally Posted by majg View Post
It won't kill the Zune HD, per se, but one reason that I didn't jump for the HD was that it was supposed to be a prototype and nothing more. There's rumors of a second HD, but non after that.

Plus, there's several months before the new WP7 series devices show up. Which could mean further developments for our current HDs. I think we should be looking at the Zune Desktop Client, however... something tells me that that's getting a major overhaul.

I'm actually impressed with what I'm seeing from not just mobile, xbox and zune, but the E&D division as a whole.

MS will be able to leverage nearly 100 device/gaming users and 100's of millions of Windows Live users... which means good stuff for us down the road.

I was waiting for Zune/Xbox/WLive to be integrated. Now I can look forward to a new phone this year.

Android (Google, period) just scares me... if you think about how they make money, it's just downright scary wrt privacy. (oops, we didn't think about privacy again, when we released such and such app)
How does the Android (Google) scare you. What privacy issues are you concerned with? IMHO WinMo phones will never touch Android and or iPhones. WinMo phones are not open, and that is a real problem for consumers. I have an Android phone, and I cant believe how fantastic this device is. If it had better media capabilities I would sell my "closed" ZuneHD in a minute.

Cheers
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  #34  
Old 02-16-2010, 09:34 AM
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How does the Android (Google) scare you. What privacy issues are you concerned with? IMHO WinMo phones will never touch Android and or iPhones. WinMo phones are not open, and that is a real problem for consumers. I have an Android phone, and I cant believe how fantastic this device is. If it had better media capabilities I would sell my "closed" ZuneHD in a minute.

Cheers
You are joking, right? Google is big brother come to life(well, outside of the UK anyway...their government is ahead of the curve on this score but that's another discussion)...
Not that MS is much better but Google wants to know what you are doing at all times...in a google world there is no privacy at all!
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  #35  
Old 02-16-2010, 09:49 AM
grunge100 grunge100 is offline
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Originally Posted by lip View Post
You are joking, right? Google is big brother come to life(well, outside of the UK anyway...their government is ahead of the curve on this score but that's another discussion)...
Not that MS is much better but Google wants to know what you are doing at all times...in a google world there is no privacy at all!
I am not sure that I follow you. What is so big brother like with Google. They have none of my information. I did open a Gmail account 3 months ago, and have yet to receive an email from google.

Links would help.. Thanks

Cheers..
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  #36  
Old 02-16-2010, 11:10 AM
jmerrey jmerrey is offline
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what are the sales figures of the zune hd? I have one, I love it, but i wonder if microsoft is making any real money from it?
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  #37  
Old 02-16-2010, 05:35 PM
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AH so that explains why facebook, Xbox integration, WPA enterprise support and other features were DELAYED for the zuneHD. Well played Microsoft, you can get a cookie from the cookie jar.
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  #38  
Old 02-16-2010, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackwheel View Post
I hope DaveMac also stops by soon, it would be interesting to get his perspective on the matter.
Oh I'm here - enjoying the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by medion View Post
The problem with Dave is (and this is not his fault) he can only go so far with his personal opinion. Also, he can't comment on or announce things that have not yet already been announced. I suspect, however, that he will love the new Windows Phone much more than the existing OS due to his owning an Iphone, and the new Windows Phone going for the same kind of model.
<snip>
So while the new Windows Phone model doesn't generally appeal to me, I do think that it's the right thing for MS to do in order to regain their competitiveness in this market.
This is true - I can't express an opinion on here because then everyone will jump on it as being an indication of our direction (even if my preference is to go in an entirely different direction, but I value my paycheck more than staying true to my passion - not that I'm saying that is the case at all!). And yes, I won't comment on unannounced products, features or offerings.

But... here is my overall guidance. As fun as it might be to bash MS, or to ridicule the company as slow, lumbering, behind the 8-ball, arrogant, etc... consider that we have a business plan, we're following it and we're making considered decisions based on that plan. Can you disagree with that plan? Of course! I bet some employees even do. But I find comments like "I can't believe MS hasn't thought of..." or "they're missing such a great opportunity..." amusing because they assume we haven't thought through our business plan with tremendous effort. Trust me, we have.

We're making bets that may or may not pay off. We're doing things you might or might not agree with. Aspects of Windows phone 7 series may or may not be for you. But these decisions are the result of considered thought and planning. You mightn't agree, but don't think the decisions are/were accidental.

I think we're doing a lot of right things with WP7 and I like how Zune is positioned. Beyond that, there really isn't much I can say.

Cheers, Dave.
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  #39  
Old 02-16-2010, 07:41 PM
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I hate cryptic answers.

*Sigh* oh well
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  #40  
Old 02-16-2010, 08:50 PM
grunge100 grunge100 is offline
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Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS View Post
Oh I'm here - enjoying the discussion.



This is true - I can't express an opinion on here because then everyone will jump on it as being an indication of our direction (even if my preference is to go in an entirely different direction, but I value my paycheck more than staying true to my passion - not that I'm saying that is the case at all!). And yes, I won't comment on unannounced products, features or offerings.

But... here is my overall guidance. As fun as it might be to bash MS, or to ridicule the company as slow, lumbering, behind the 8-ball, arrogant, etc... consider that we have a business plan, we're following it and we're making considered decisions based on that plan. Can you disagree with that plan? Of course! I bet some employees even do. But I find comments like "I can't believe MS hasn't thought of..." or "they're missing such a great opportunity..." amusing because they assume we haven't thought through our business plan with tremendous effort. Trust me, we have.

We're making bets that may or may not pay off. We're doing things you might or might not agree with. Aspects of Windows phone 7 series may or may not be for you. But these decisions are the result of considered thought and planning. You mightn't agree, but don't think the decisions are/were accidental.

I think we're doing a lot of right things with WP7 and I like how Zune is positioned. Beyond that, there really isn't much I can say.

Cheers, Dave.
Dave,

You seem like a really nice person, and I think we all appreciate your point of view, and you finding time to post in the forums. I wish MS the best of luck with the ZuneHD and the WinMo platform for phones, but unless MS decides to ramp up their efforts to provide a media/phone platform that is fairly open like Android, MS will never be a major player in these markets. I really like my zuneHD, but aside from the touch interface and marketplace it is no better than my first Zune30. I have played with a nice WinMo phone, and it gets crushed by a cheaper Android phone. Sorry, I just think the MS approach is too narrow minded.

Just my very humble opinion.

Thanks and Cheers
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