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  #21  
Old 01-26-2010, 10:36 PM
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I might care a little bit more about this if I weren't back at a college which uses WPA2 encoding for WiFi and my Zune says NETWORK TYPE NOT SUPPORTED underneath the two WPA2 networks at my school when I try to connect, so I'm hoping for a firmware update that makes Internet apps like Facebook relevant again.
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  #22  
Old 01-26-2010, 11:04 PM
shakermaker41 shakermaker41 is offline
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Yeah. I honestly don't care that much about the FB app at all, but it's still just like... you know I'm not even mad. I just sort of shake my head at this kind of thing and am reminded of why the ipod touch, especially the inevitable refresh this year, is so much of a better device. How the freak long does it take to get some basic apps out. I'm not programmer and I don't mean to be insulting... I'm sure things are a bit more complicated than they seem. But seriously? I knew before I bought the HD that it wouldn't focus on apps, and I'm ok with that basic idea. But maybe you guys could focus on it just a little bit more ffs? I hate to be one of those wild haters, foaming at the mouth in rage. But this is absolutely pathetic.
I pretty agree with you completely Icky. I'm not an expert programmer by any means, but I do work as a software engineer by day and don't understand this seemingly languid pace. I feel like 4 months should be enough time to get something stable out. And the key word is stable! Dave keeps mentioning how they want it to be top notch quality as an excuse for the delays, but somehow that doesn't pass the smell test for me.

I've never used Facebook but I can't believe there are that many things to do in it (Post messages, view messages, add friends...anything else? correct me if I'm wrong here). Facebook certainly must provide a developer API for all the core functionality....the core of this application should have been a walk in the park. They are probably F'ing around with the look and feel. If it's stable then RELEASE it and let us give FEEDBACK as to how it works and then release updates! I don't need it to be 100% perfect out of the gate.

It seems like Dave and MS are thinking they need to nail it on the first try. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'd rather see larger volume of basically stable and usable software that gets released frequently and is updated as needed. People can always wait for a new button or menu or whatever if they get to at least use it in the meantime. And the more apps there are to choose from, the more distractions they have to keep them busy while they wait for the said button/menu/what-have-you.

I haven't even bothered looking at the SDK for the Zune because from what I understand it's gimped (no wi-fi or 3D) so I feel like what's the point? I haven't even loaded any 3rd party apps on it because I read that you have to restart the f-cking device when you close the app! Ridiculous!

Wow I'm really venting here. I mostly love the Zune HD for the record! Fantastic music device, it could just be so much more! And I feel like there were some odd decisions made with it and the languid pace is aggravating. I've read most of Dave's explanations and, while logical, just don't pass the smell test for me.
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  #23  
Old 01-26-2010, 11:17 PM
DavidJ84 DavidJ84 is offline
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Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS View Post
This is 100% quality driven, and I strongly support the decision to wait until the codebase is rock solid before letting the app out.
I'm all for waiting for a higher quality release and support the decision as well. For me personally, this app has to be top notch for me to even use it. Otherwise, my phone's Facebook app or even the mobile Facebook site will still be primarily used since my phone is always connected to a cell tower somewhere.
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  #24  
Old 01-26-2010, 11:20 PM
timmahcheese timmahcheese is offline
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@shakermaker: i aggree. Yes it may take a little while to make apps, but geez. A possibility is that the zune team could release beta versions and update them as much as needed until its completed. I dont know... yes, its pretty much a music only pmp, but if you're going to give it apps, give it apps. hell, AT LEAST MAKE IT SO ALL IT DOES IS PARTIALLY RESTART AFTER EXITING, like a jailbroken touch... pain in the butt to have to restart every time i exit a 3rd party app...
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  #25  
Old 01-26-2010, 11:25 PM
Re-Vision Re-Vision is offline
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Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS View Post
Hey guys:

You beat me to it - was just about to post about this.

Honestly, I'm as disappointed as you are. We did make a commitment and we're having to break that. I'll be the first to admit that isn't cool - but I'm glad we're coming out and telling you up front and being truthful. Plenty of folks out there are waiting for FB, and I'm glad we're doing the right thing about keeping you up to date.

I can tell you that this is not an arbitrary "let's hold FB back until MWC" or anything like that. This is 100% quality driven, and I strongly support the decision to wait until the codebase is rock solid before letting the app out. And frustrating as this is, I know you guys would make the same decision if you were managing the project. It truly won't be long now - we're real close.

Cheers, Dave.
I for one have given up on Zune HD, i'm now more interested in Android. Dave can you explain what Quality-Driven Apps you speak of, don't mention the games please because I'm satisfied with the game quality.

But its a shame how your so called Twitter Fiasco ended up, where is quality in that, i have yet to see quality in that Twitter App for Zune HD. If your definition for quality means taking 2-3 months per App that still fails to achieve quality, than i think your strategy is an Epic Fail. No wonder why there is so much backlash among the Zune community. Apart from Games there are only 3 Apps, 4 if you count the crappy Piano App.

Lately I have been trying to recommend Zune HD to people around school, but everyone who i tried to recommend this device to, brings up questions like how many Apps does this thing have, does it have Youtube, or Google Maps. Those are few question to which the answers still remain a mystery even among the clueless Zune Team.

Whats more saddening is the fact that there is no Bing App yet for Zune HD, been using Bing Search from day one, i've also recommended it to my friends, though i now plan to move my Home-Page to either Google or Yahoo. Damn it,I feel so frustrated at this company that neglects to understand consumer demand.

Come Wednesday January The 27th Apple Tablet will leave Microsofts Slate PC in the Oblivion. The Unveiling of the Tablet will mark the death of Microsoft mobile venture.

Also,in Few months Apple Tablet will become my first Apple product ever. Great job MS at losing your loyal fans.
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  #26  
Old 01-27-2010, 12:15 AM
Icky6 Icky6 is offline
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I just lol'ed to myself to see people besides me complaining. It at least makes me feel better to know that I'm not crazy, that I'm not the only one who thinks the app development times are getting ridiculous. I mean what are they paying the dev teams with, peanuts? They must have no incentive to get anything done.
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  #27  
Old 01-27-2010, 12:27 AM
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Here we go again...the app complaint...
Why did you buy the Zune HD? Did you buy this device for apps? It's not that good for them...you can argue all you want that it should be this or should be that but they have been clear from day 1 that the Zune HD is a media (music/movies) device first and everything else second...you don't like it? Buy something else...
It's not an ideal product for apps...the screen is on the small side...there is no 3G chip for real mobile applications...no hardware buttons for games...I could go on, but...
I guess you could go with Android as they have apps but their music/video sucks balls...the best alternative is the touch or iphone as the media playback are half decent (not to the level of the Zune HD, not even close IMHO) and they have the best app catalog...
If I was you, I would stop "wishing" it was this or that...either be happy with what you have and enjoy it now or sell it and buy something else...life is too short if you are not happy with something...
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  #28  
Old 01-27-2010, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Re-Vision View Post
Also,in Few months Apple Tablet will become my first Apple product ever. Great job MS at losing your loyal fans.
Wait, are you actually committing to buy a product that hasn't yet been unveiled because of frustration with a separate company over issues with a mostly incomparable product? I understand the frustration with Microsoft on this issue. They've missed their own publicly announced deadlines a few times, without much to show as an excuse. Essentially, their strategy with regard to apps has left the Zune HD platform greatly underdeveloped relative to its potential.

But there is a fundamental disconnect between frustration over Microsoft's development process with regard to the Zune HD and a commitment to buy an unspec'd, unpriced product that will likely fill an almost entirely unrelated niche.

I wish I had the amount of money to throw around where I could begin to entertain such a strange notion.
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  #29  
Old 01-27-2010, 01:32 AM
ZuneHD? ZuneHD? is offline
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Honestly, I was about to buy a new Zune HD 32 before I started browsing around. It has awesome hardware, and great audio/video. That and the fact that I've been a proud owner of a Zune 30 for years.

Problem is, well, there's a few (in no particular order)...
One: My school has WPA, browser based log in, and if I can't log in there (or various other places) I see no use in the browser. I would much rather use my laptop when I'm home.
Two: Lack of apps. Now, I don't want the billions of apps that iPods have, I wouldn't use them, and well, alot of them are crap. BUT, I would use a youtube feature, IM suite feature, texting (sms messaging) feature, and Bing (for maps and such). Those are pretty basic needs for a want-to-be mobile media device that includes the internet.
Third: Microsoft's almost sneakyness. There isn't alot of information about it being released, I would like to know whats going on, at least to some extent, not "Oh, sorry, we need to extend this one app for the second time." They should have been more on this, fund the Zune team more I suppose. It has alot more potential. No offense to you Dave, you actually seem like you care.

I'm not expecting a gaming machine, or something with thousands of apps, But I do expect a company to seem just a little more upfront with whats coming out, basic apps, and more actual WiFi support.
No, I'm not going to switch to iPod, because I hate iTunes, but I'm not quite yet sold on the HD anymore when it doesn't have anything much more than my 30...
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  #30  
Old 01-27-2010, 03:33 AM
DaveMac-MS DaveMac-MS is offline
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Originally Posted by p0ke37 View Post
But I would like to know - what is the problem? Is coding it really that hard, or is somebody slacking on the dev team? Are you guys going to be able to do apps similar to facebook since you went through the trouble of (I'm assuming) building all these libraries and long lines of code?
Ya, in fairness to the folks involved I don't want to get into too many details. Soon, after the app is released, I'll share a little more. In the meantime, this application is not being developed in-house. That has caused some issues. I've also talked previously about the challenges involved in building an "application" in a game SDK. As you point out, yes, we've built libraries to support non-game applications, but those have added complexity to projects that wouldn't normally be there.

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Originally Posted by ZuneHD? View Post
Third: Microsoft's almost sneakyness. There isn't alot of information about it being released, I would like to know whats going on, at least to some extent, not "Oh, sorry, we need to extend this one app for the second time." They should have been more on this, fund the Zune team more I suppose. It has alot more potential. No offense to you Dave, you actually seem like you care.
I do care. A lot. And despite the disappointment in here, and in some cases, anger - I'm actually proud that we came out ahead of this once we realized that we were going to miss a deadline. In an industry where secrecy is the norm, I'm pleased that we're keeping you guys up to date, even when the news is bad.

Bottom line is that we have more content coming, FB is real close now and the feature updates we announced at CES are coming too. In the overall context of the product, I still feel like there's a lot to be excited about - and when I can tell you about some of the stuff I'm working on now, well... you'll wonder if hell has frozen over at Microsoft. Can't wait to share more about that stuff in due course!

Cheers, Dave.
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  #31  
Old 01-27-2010, 05:35 AM
kutthoat5150 kutthoat5150 is offline
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Thanks for keeping us posted Dave, I'm sure the wait will be worth it. I just hope it runs smoother than twitter because twitter seems to lag a lot when starting up. Also, without giving any specific details, but what percent of new stuff coming out for the Zune HD this year is being developed in house compared to third parties developing content for it?

And I bet you were excited when the second wave of games came out such as bowling, audiosurf, pgr etc., especially those that you couldn't tell us about that came with it. I would just like to know what your excitement level is for any new games and apps that are coming out that haven't been announced yet. How is it compared to the stuff thats already been released?
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  #32  
Old 01-27-2010, 07:47 AM
shakermaker41 shakermaker41 is offline
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Originally Posted by lip View Post
Here we go again...the app complaint...
Why did you buy the Zune HD? Did you buy this device for apps? It's not that good for them...you can argue all you want that it should be this or should be that but they have been clear from day 1 that the Zune HD is a media (music/movies) device first and everything else second...you don't like it? Buy something else...
lip, the #1 reason I bought a Zune HD over iPod was music. No one here can argue that the iPod has a better music experience. However, I also was impressed with the much-trumpeted tegra chip and display of the device. The potential of the thing was like a siren call to me, so I bought one. I haven't been disappointed with the music or video experience at all. The problem is that F'ing carrot that MS keeps dangling over us. The app carrot, if you will. If apps weren't going to be a focus, then Dave and MS need to stop saying things like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS View Post
Bottom line is that we have more content coming, FB is real close now and the feature updates we announced at CES are coming too. In the overall context of the product, I still feel like there's a lot to be excited about - and when I can tell you about some of the stuff I'm working on now, well... you'll wonder if hell has frozen over at Microsoft. Can't wait to share more about that stuff in due course!
It's that kind of stuff, followed by delays or an inexplicable 4+ month development cycle for a Facebook app that is aggravating. Either take the dangling carrot away and just let us be happy with a great mp3 player that delights us when the yearly app comes out, or dip that f-cker in chocolate sauce, fry it, and show us the F'ing carrots!

The promise of all these great things is what ultimately leads to disappointment and frustration. Sadly, a part of me is still anxious to see what fantastical things Dave is talking about that will freeze hell over, but another part of me cautions that it just another dangling carrot used to placate me for the eventually underwhelming "stuff" that they are working on.

Dave, I really do appreciate your willingness to be on this board listening to venting. Must be about the worst job ever. Don't take it personally - it's just pissing and moaning AKA the human condition.
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  #33  
Old 01-27-2010, 07:48 AM
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Thanks for answering my questions Dave, but I still want to know if the work put into the Facebook app will allow a greater range of apps. And be honest with us, would you pay the same company that is developing Facebook again?
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  #34  
Old 01-27-2010, 08:29 AM
Re-Vision Re-Vision is offline
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Originally Posted by Meng Bomin View Post
Wait, are you actually committing to buy a product that hasn't yet been unveiled because of frustration with a separate company over issues with a mostly incomparable product? I understand the frustration with Microsoft on this issue. They've missed their own publicly announced deadlines a few times, without much to show as an excuse. Essentially, their strategy with regard to apps has left the Zune HD platform greatly underdeveloped relative to its potential.

But there is a fundamental disconnect between frustration over Microsoft's development process with regard to the Zune HD and a commitment to buy an unspec'd, unpriced product that will likely fill an almost entirely unrelated niche.

I wish I had the amount of money to throw around where I could begin to entertain such a strange notion.
You do realize that this Apple Tablet has been getting a lot of attention from Media Outlet, more specifically online Tech Sites, lets take Gizmodo for an example,for the last week alone there has been at least 4-5 articles a day about how great Apple Tablet is, And considering what Apple has been doing lately i think i would be more interested in its mobile devices than some company that either fails to understand consumer or rejects to accept that its recent products have been nothing short of a catastrophe.

Soapbox, Live Mail, Windows Mobile, Tablet PC all failed products

When a company loses its loyal fan, it also loses an outlet to spread the word.

I should've known better, when you have a Monkey running this company, how can you expect change.

And all the cushion MS has left in the Windows and Office products will diminish with the efforts of Open Source led by Gooogle. Google Will soon kill Microsoft. We should here more layoffs at MS and more hiring at Apple.

Dont take my word for it, ask Microsoft Shareholder how they feel about the company.
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  #35  
Old 01-27-2010, 09:26 AM
Joshnor713 Joshnor713 is offline
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Originally Posted by lip View Post
Here we go again...the app complaint...
Why did you buy the Zune HD? Did you buy this device for apps? It's not that good for them...you can argue all you want that it should be this or should be that but they have been clear from day 1 that the Zune HD is a media (music/movies) device first and everything else second...you don't like it? Buy something else...
It's not an ideal product for apps...the screen is on the small side...there is no 3G chip for real mobile applications...no hardware buttons for games...I could go on, but...
I guess you could go with Android as they have apps but their music/video sucks balls...the best alternative is the touch or iphone as the media playback are half decent (not to the level of the Zune HD, not even close IMHO) and they have the best app catalog...
If I was you, I would stop "wishing" it was this or that...either be happy with what you have and enjoy it now or sell it and buy something else...life is too short if you are not happy with something...
Here we go again, another person saying maybe you should've bought something else. You know, people's compliants about this subject are right-on. Microsoft following this ideal of yours and making this device what they want it to be instead of what the majority of consumers want is BAD business. Apps are a big deal in the market today and Microsoft should know not having good app support on a device like this is a handicap. And when you look at the competition, you can't afford a big handicap.

I partly bought this device because I thought Microsoft got serious about it, with the awesome hardware and stuff, and really wanted it to be successful, but I guess they have other plans.
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  #36  
Old 01-27-2010, 09:29 AM
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p0ke37 p0ke37 is offline
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Originally Posted by Re-Vision View Post
You do realize that this Apple Tablet has been getting a lot of attention from Media Outlet, more specifically online Tech Sites, lets take Gizmodo for an example,for the last week alone there has been at least 4-5 articles a day about how great Apple Tablet is, And considering what Apple has been doing lately i think i would be more interested in its mobile devices than some company that either fails to understand consumer or rejects to accept that its recent products have been nothing short of a catastrophe.

Soapbox, Live Mail, Windows Mobile, Tablet PC all failed products

When a company loses its loyal fan, it also loses an outlet to spread the word.

I should've known better, when you have a Monkey running this company, how can you expect change.

And all the cushion MS has left in the Windows and Office products will diminish with the efforts of Open Source led by Gooogle. Google Will soon kill Microsoft. We should here more layoffs at MS and more hiring at Apple.

Dont take my word for it, ask Microsoft Shareholder how they feel about the company.
I agree with what you are implying about Google and its open source software. Open-source is becoming a popular alternative to using expensive Office, I actually run a ubuntu computer with OpenOffice. People are becoming more and more tech savvy with each passing year, and soon open-source platforms like Android will kill all. Including Mac's, which suck balls anyway and only gets attention because it is created by Apple. I really wish people would realise that Mac software is UNIX based, which is like an inbred older cousin of Linux...
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  #37  
Old 01-27-2010, 10:00 AM
Flyordie Flyordie is offline
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Ya, in fairness to the folks involved I don't want to get into too many details. Soon, after the app is released, I'll share a little more. In the meantime, this application is not being developed in-house. That has caused some issues. I've also talked previously about the challenges involved in building an "application" in a game SDK. As you point out, yes, we've built libraries to support non-game applications, but those have added complexity to projects that wouldn't normally be there.



I do care. A lot. And despite the disappointment in here, and in some cases, anger - I'm actually proud that we came out ahead of this once we realized that we were going to miss a deadline. In an industry where secrecy is the norm, I'm pleased that we're keeping you guys up to date, even when the news is bad.

Bottom line is that we have more content coming, FB is real close now and the feature updates we announced at CES are coming too. In the overall context of the product, I still feel like there's a lot to be excited about - and when I can tell you about some of the stuff I'm working on now, well... you'll wonder if hell has frozen over at Microsoft. Can't wait to share more about that stuff in due course!

Cheers, Dave.

@dave
Some of us already know what the deal is with the client and why it was delayed. However, I am like you and wish not to break the rules.

For those of you that have used Facebook on your PC, how is the chatclient for the browser?

How well is it in general related to bugs and dysfunctional areas?

You have to look at it from a broad point of view peepz. I am a facebook user but I ain't hounding MS about getting it released. The client just isn't ready. Aesthetics look aight, but overall it should be out by Valentines Day. I doubt anyone at MS wants to go home on Valentines Day feeling like crap cause they missed the chance to let everyone say "I love you" on Facebook for Zune on their girlfriend/boyfriends walls. hehe. :-)
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  #38  
Old 01-27-2010, 10:43 AM
bullseye bullseye is offline
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Dave, I have a question regarding the <building an "application" in a game SDK>. How come an "application" SDK was not implemented for this device?

Isn't there a way to make an specifc Software Development Kit for apps to make things easier?

If that is not possible please elaborate so I can at least have an idea of why apps have to be developed over a gaming SDK.
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  #39  
Old 01-27-2010, 10:50 AM
shakermaker41 shakermaker41 is offline
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Dave, I have a question regarding the <building an "application" in a game SDK>. How come an "application" SDK was not implemented for this device?

Isn't there a way to make an specifc Software Development Kit for apps to make things easier?

If that is not possible please elaborate so I can at least have an idea of why apps have to be developed over a gaming SDK.
I was actually wondering this myself. An SDK to perform these tasks should have been in place while the Zune HD was being built. Why make a hardware device and hinder yourself by not making appropriate tools to create software?
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  #40  
Old 01-27-2010, 11:07 AM
DaveMac-MS DaveMac-MS is offline
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Originally Posted by kutthoat5150 View Post
Also, without giving any specific details, but what percent of new stuff coming out for the Zune HD this year is being developed in house compared to third parties developing content for it?
<snip>
I would just like to know what your excitement level is for any new games and apps that are coming out that haven't been announced yet. How is it compared to the stuff thats already been released?
Hard questions to answer since I'm working on our portfolio right now AND what interests me might not interest others. I also don't want to give too many hints nor put the knackers on existing development projects. But let me say this - in a few weeks I'll be able to share a little more about what's on the horizon.

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Originally Posted by shakermaker41 View Post
Sadly, a part of me is still anxious to see what fantastical things Dave is talking about that will freeze hell over, but another part of me cautions that it just another dangling carrot used to placate me for the eventually underwhelming "stuff" that they are working on.
Look, I'm not trying to make people crazy or give a false sense of excitement. I truly am excited about what I'm working on. Heck, in a company the size of Microsoft, if I wasn't, I'd go work on a different project.

But, don't expect that I'm soon going to announce 25,000 new apps. Remember the context I've set around the product, keep your eyes and ears to the ground over the next few weeks to see what MS as a whole has to share about forthcoming products, and in the meantime, let's keep the conversation going.

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Originally Posted by p0ke37 View Post
Thanks for answering my questions Dave, but I still want to know if the work put into the Facebook app will allow a greater range of apps. And be honest with us, would you pay the same company that is developing Facebook again?
GREAT question - I'm a big believer in "you don't fire the guy who just made a mistake costing $600k - because you've just spent $600k training the guy". Now, if this became a pattern, I'd think differently - but yes, I'd hire them again. In fact, I referred some business to them recently, which I understand they won - so while I wouldn't use them exclusively, I think the lessons learnt here are valuable.

Will the FB work allow a greater range of apps? Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bullseye View Post
Dave, I have a question regarding the <building an "application" in a game SDK>. How come an "application" SDK was not implemented for this device?
Simply because 1) we already had an SDK in XNA, and so by leveraging that, we could get an SDK to market on launch day and get tools to app development partners immediately, and 2) our investment in resources was such that we preferred to invest more in the device and take advantage of existing tools, rather than down-feature the product in order to have our own dedicated SDK in place.

Cheers, Dave.
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