Reason why ZHD will NOT have Flash.

[weedalin]

Ah. That's interesting. I thought for sure the APX2500 Chip was capable of full Flash. Pity.

[CrowdAds]

[mster911]

Originally Posted by weedalin

Ah. That's interesting. I thought for sure the APX2500 Chip was capable of full Flash. Pity.

Aaaaaahh...you mean the APX 2600 right....the Zune HD uses the APX 2600 chip not the APX 2500, only difference is that the APX 2600 has support for enhanced NAND flash...no biggie really.......


Okay, back to the point the chip IS CAPABLE OF FULL FLASH, but doesn't have the RAM......the Zune HD has a 1024 Mbit Ram (means 128 Megabyte) and this is technically just barely enough to support flash, which means practically its no where near enough......Hynix (the RAM manufacturer) makes other versions of the same RAM chip at 128Mbit, 256Mbit, 512MBit and 2048Mbit.What Microsoft should have done is used the 2048 Megabit chip (256 Megabyte), instead of the 1024 Mbit one.....

Please note: 1 byte is equal to 8 bits and so one......

[medion]

Hmmm...well virtual memory is difficult at best to implement in devices such as the Zune HD, reason the OS has to support it and if you are going to bring virtual memory support to the current Zune OS, well lets just say that it'll take a lot of new coding and testing and development.......
On the N900 it was a lot easier to implement because , the Maemo OS is based on linux and linux already has support for this feature....so it was relatively simple to add support for virtual memory in the N900............

And let's not forget that the ZHD comes in 16 and 32GB configurations, without the option to upgrade that. The N900 comes with 32GB only, and has expansion room for another 16, for a total of 48. For Nokia, reserving 768MB of space for virtual memory isn't that big a deal. Microsoft did the same with the original Xbox, reserving 512MB of the HDD in a partition that the user couldn't access, as a buffer for games to assist in load times.

With the Zune HD, maybe MS felt that 768MB was just too much of a chunk to give up. Keep in mind that if an app wants to use X amount for virtual memory, MS would have to reserve that space, meaning that you wouldn't see it, and wouldn't ever be able to use it for your own use, because if you could, it would cause compatibility issues. Also, keep in mind that using virtual memory in a reserved space is often a bad idea, because it means CONSTANT writes and re-writes to those same blocks. That kills flash memory fast.

Ah. That's interesting. I thought for sure the APX2500 Chip was capable of full Flash. Pity.

I think that you're misinterpreting what I'm saying, or I'm not conveying my point very well. I'll try again. The Tegra APX 2600 within the Zune HD is absolutely capable of running GPU accelerated Flash content. However, without enough RAM, it can't be done. The limitation is the system's RAM, not the GPU. An analogy;

You = Tegra
Bucket = RAM
Water = Flash

You are strong enough to hold 1 gallon of water, just as the Tegra is strong enough to run Flash. However, in order for you to hold that water without it slipping through your fingers, you need a 1 gallon container, just as the Tegra needs enough RAM to run that Flash.

[medion]

Originally Posted by mster911

Aaaaaahh...you mean the APX 2600 right....the Zune HD uses the APX 2600 chip not the APX 2500, only difference is that the APX 2600 has support for enhanced NAND flash...no biggie really.......


Okay, back to the point the chip IS CAPABLE OF FULL FLASH, but doesn't have the RAM......the Zune HD has a 1024 Mbit Ram (means 128 Megabyte) and this is technically just barely enough to support flash, which means practically its no where near enough......Hynix (the RAM manufacturer) makes other versions of the same RAM chip at 128Mbit, 256Mbit, 512MBit and 2048Mbit.What Microsoft should have done is used the 2048 Megabit chip (256 Megabyte), instead of the 1024 Mbit one.....

Please note: 1 byte is equal to 8 bits and so one......

If you could, please stick to just using the "bytes" rather than the "bits" when describing memory. While "bits" are still used in the technical sense, the average person only understands bytes. When talking about memory, bits traditionally refers to bus width these days. Basically, you're introducing another variable to a person who is already confused and trying to learn the basics of "why?" on the subject. We're all impressed with your knowledge on the subject, but let's dumb it down a little bit for the rest of us

[mster911]

Originally Posted by medion

If you could, please stick to just using the "bytes" rather than the "bits" when describing memory. While "bits" are still used in the technical sense, the average person only understands bytes. When talking about memory, bits traditionally refers to bus width these days. Basically, you're introducing another variable to a person who is already confused and trying to learn the basics of "why?" on the subject. We're all impressed with your knowledge on the subject, but let's dumb it down a little bit for the rest of us

Srry...dude...will stick to easier stuff after this....Its just that I find it easier to use terms like bits and such coz thats what computes easily for me...srry for any inconvenience I may have caused

[Joshnor713]

What about Flash lite?

[mster911]

Originally Posted by Joshnor713

What about Flash lite?

From what I know...Flash lite can be implemented on the Zune HD....

[weedalin]

Originally Posted by medion

And let's not forget that the ZHD comes in 16 and 32GB configurations, without the option to upgrade that. The N900 comes with 32GB only, and has expansion room for another 16, for a total of 48. For Nokia, reserving 768MB of space for virtual memory isn't that big a deal. Microsoft did the same with the original Xbox, reserving 512MB of the HDD in a partition that the user couldn't access, as a buffer for games to assist in load times.

With the Zune HD, maybe MS felt that 768MB was just too much of a chunk to give up. Keep in mind that if an app wants to use X amount for virtual memory, MS would have to reserve that space, meaning that you wouldn't see it, and wouldn't ever be able to use it for your own use, because if you could, it would cause compatibility issues. Also, keep in mind that using virtual memory in a reserved space is often a bad idea, because it means CONSTANT writes and re-writes to those same blocks. That kills flash memory fast.



I think that you're misinterpreting what I'm saying, or I'm not conveying my point very well. I'll try again. The Tegra APX 2600 within the Zune HD is absolutely capable of running GPU accelerated Flash content. However, without enough RAM, it can't be done. The limitation is the system's RAM, not the GPU. An analogy;

You = Tegra
Bucket = RAM
Water = Flash

You are strong enough to hold 1 gallon of water, just as the Tegra is strong enough to run Flash. However, in order for you to hold that water without it slipping through your fingers, you need a 1 gallon container, just as the Tegra needs enough RAM to run that Flash.

Oh, I know Tegra is completely capable of running Flash. I just didn't have any idea it's RAM was so little. Like I said, it's a tragedy.
And I knew it was either APX 2500 or 2600, just couldn't remember the correct name, sorry about that!

[medion]

Originally Posted by Joshnor713

What about Flash lite?

Both Flash Lite and full Flash can be implemented on the ZHD, it's just that it will have to be creatively done. For example:

Let's say you go to the Youtube website, and the Zune now has full Flash support. When you click a video, it dumps the browser from memory, and loads Flash and the video. The downside? Ungodly load times, as you're talking about dumping one application, loading another, and then loading the video. Then, when you exit the video, it has to dump flash from memory, then re-load the web browser.

A better implementation would be to use the Youtube mobile app that every cell phone uses today, including the Iphone, but that only helps with Youtube, and not all flash websites. As for Flash Lite, I have that on my phone, and it's so half-assed, I don't think it's worth doing on the Zune. Just my opinion though.

Originally Posted by weedalin

Oh, I know Tegra is completely capable of running Flash. I just didn't have any idea it's RAM was so little. Like I said, it's a tragedy.
And I knew it was either APX 2500 or 2600, just couldn't remember the correct name, sorry about that!

Nothing to apologize for, it's an easy mistake. I've been half-tempted to do a full writeup comparison between the Tegra in the ZHD, the Tegra being used for next year's WinMo 7 phones, Snapdragon, Cortex A8 (Iphone 3GS), Cortex A9, etc. My only concern is the wannabes on this forum disputing the info without backing it up with any sources. I don't want to come across as a know-it-all and then lead into an argument.

[mster911]

Originally Posted by medion

Both Flash Lite and full Flash can be implemented on the ZHD, it's just that it will have to be creatively done. For example:

Let's say you go to the Youtube website, and the Zune now has full Flash support. When you click a video, it dumps the browser from memory, and loads Flash and the video. The downside? Ungodly load times, as you're talking about dumping one application, loading another, and then loading the video. Then, when you exit the video, it has to dump flash from memory, then re-load the web browser.

A better implementation would be to use the Youtube mobile app that every cell phone uses today, including the Iphone, but that only helps with Youtube, and not all flash websites. As for Flash Lite, I have that on my phone, and it's so half-assed, I don't think it's worth doing on the Zune. Just my opinion though.



Nothing to apologize for, it's an easy mistake. I've been half-tempted to do a full writeup comparison between the Tegra in the ZHD, the Tegra being used for next year's WinMo 7 phones, Snapdragon, Cortex A8 (Iphone 3GS), Cortex A9, etc. My only concern is the wannabes on this forum disputing the info without backing it up with any sources. I don't want to come across as a know-it-all and then lead into an argument.

Dude...really great idea about the implementation of flash...lets hope Microsoft does something which allows us to use full flash on the Zune HD

[mster911]

And MEDION ...i FOR ONE WILL BE INTERESTED TO READ YOUR COMPARISON....

[weedalin]

Originally Posted by mster911

And MEDION ...i FOR ONE WILL BE INTERESTED TO READ YOUR COMPARISON....

Same. Specs and actual performance comparisons would be nice.

[doomlordis]

Flash is very hard to impliment on an OS like the iphones, it doesnt support multiple applications running at once, the 128mb is a problem (3rd gen is 256mb though).
The biggest problem with Flash on either Apple or Microsoft hardware is the fact they dont want to support it, they want HTML 5 to succeed as it covers all bases and makes 3rd party web plugins unneccesary.

Oh yeah and Jobs is in the huff over quicktime...

[negative1]

i'm sure the latter versions of flash all allow some form of scripting,
and that's what keeps it off the iphone and ipod touch..

i'm sure the zuneHD would have the same problems.

later
-1

[medion]

Originally Posted by negative1

i'm sure the latter versions of flash all allow some form of scripting,
and that's what keeps it off the iphone and ipod touch..

i'm sure the zuneHD would have the same problems.

later
-1

Main reason the Iphone isn't getting Flash is because, with the plethora of free flash games available online, that's fewer projected sales from the app store.

[DaveMac-MS]

Originally Posted by medion

Main reason the Iphone isn't getting Flash is because, with the plethora of free flash games available online, that's fewer projected sales from the app store.

No, that's not the reason that Apple doesn't support Flash in the iPhone. I don't think Apple would feel one bit threatened by online free flash games.

DM.

[epithetless]

Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS

No, that's not the reason that Apple doesn't support Flash in the iPhone. I don't think Apple would feel one bit threatened by online free flash games.

Which begs the obvious question: What, in your view, is the actual reason Apple doesn't support Flash on the iPhone?

[DaveMac-MS]

Originally Posted by epithetless

Which begs the obvious question: What, in your view, is the actual reason Apple doesn't support Flash on the iPhone?

With all the usual caveats that this is just my personal opinion...

Licensing.

That could include royalties, IP disagreements, mobile innovation patent issues, conflicting obligations with other vendors, etc... etc... Who really knows - but this area is a hornet's nest of complexity and really... do they need it?

Games work fine on an iPod.

Apps work fine on an iPod.

Most of the web works reasonably well - and they'd argue that anything that requires flash probably warrants a desktop experience anyhow...

So... who knows, they might come out with it tomorrow - but if they do, I bet they spent way more time on the business issues than the technical ones.

Cheers, Dave.

[Marmite]

All this talk of Flash, wouldn't it be more sensible for them to just support HTML 5 (or some of the relevent extensions of it) instead of that chunky addin that has updates every time u turn the PC on?

[sonorguy]

Originally Posted by medion

I've been half-tempted to do a full writeup comparison between the Tegra in the ZHD, the Tegra being used for next year's WinMo 7 phones, Snapdragon, Cortex A8 (Iphone 3GS), Cortex A9, etc. My only concern is the wannabes on this forum disputing the info without backing it up with any sources. I don't want to come across as a know-it-all and then lead into an argument.

I, too, would be very interested in this. And if anyone causes you with any grief, the rest of us can just spam their PM box and email to no end