Clip v1 vs. Clip+ - RMAA and Spectrum Analysis

[Scoox]

Originally Posted by mrsmr2

I can hear a difference between my V1 4GB Clip and Clip+ 8GB. Now, my terms are probably not correct but it seems that the + has lost some of the airy feel of the original. The layers of music that the original had seem a little more congested and it feels slightly less bright.

You may have done this already, but check your equalizer settings. (Home menu > Settings > Equalizer.

[CrowdAds]

[paulr]

Originally Posted by defaultluser

In the end, power is everything, because they just couldn't increase the size of that tiny little patch of a battery (290 mAh!). They managed to eck-out 15 hours playback, which is really impressive.

That is comparable to what the original M200 series got from one AAA cell with a comparable amount of total energy, despite the inefficiency of any dc-dc converters, the use of ~4 year old technology (I'd expect current digital stuff would be even more efficient) and the fact that the display (non-backlit LCD) was active and readable 100% of the time. The Clip apparently has quite a powerful processor, same platform as the Fuze according to the Rockbox port (if I understand correctly), though maybe they run it slower.

[saratoga]

Originally Posted by paulr

That is comparable to what the original M200 series got from one AAA cell with a comparable amount of total energy,

Unsurprising, since the m200v4 was also an AMS player (same hardware as the clipv1 and not very different from the clip+). The clip's firmware actually calls it the "m300".

[defaultluser]

Originally Posted by paulr

That is comparable to what the original M200 series got from one AAA cell with a comparable amount of total energy, despite the inefficiency of any dc-dc converters, the use of ~4 year old technology (I'd expect current digital stuff would be even more efficient) and the fact that the display (non-backlit LCD) was active and readable 100% of the time. The Clip apparently has quite a powerful processor, same platform as the Fuze according to the Rockbox port (if I understand correctly), though maybe they run it slower.

I disagree with your "comparable amount of energy" claim.

Specs of the Clip+ battery:

3.7Volt, 330mAh, approx. 24x36x3mm (battery pack only), 3 leads bare (no connector), control board attached, approx. 28x38x3mm (complete with board & insulating tape).

Typical capacity of a AAA NiMH battery: 700 to 800 mAh

Now, you can argue battery technology and efficiency under heavy versus light load, but no amount of discussion is going to bridge a %100 gap between battery capacities.

The Clip+ battery is incredibly small, and the Clip+ platform has to be incredibly efficient to reach 15 hours under those conditions.

[saratoga]

Originally Posted by defaultluser

I disagree with your "comparable amount of energy" claim.

Specs of the Clip+ battery:

3.7Volt, 330mAh, approx. 24x36x3mm (battery pack only), 3 leads bare (no connector), control board attached, approx. 28x38x3mm (complete with board & insulating tape).

Typical capacity of a AAA NiMH battery: 700 to 800 mAh

3.7v*330mah = 4395 J
1.2v*800mah = 3456 J

So cheap Nimh is about 80% of the Clip's capacity, and good nimh is almost exactly the same.

[defaultluser]

Originally Posted by saratoga

3.7v*330mah = 4395 J
1.2v*800mah = 3456 J

So cheap Nimh is about 80% of the Clip's capacity, and good nimh is almost exactly the same.

Sorry, next time I won't post when my brain is fried.

[saratoga]

No problem. I almost did the same thing

[Sonic Atrocity]

Okay so with Rockbox should I even care about the Clip+ playback issue then? Would you guys say these differences are at all detectable??

So, as for the 500Hz playback where the clip+ stands at 501Hz is that with Rockbox? So what does that mean? At higher Hz would the pitch difference (which is also affects playback speed if I am correct) be noticeable to any human ear? Sorry, I am compulsive about this stuff and I NEED to know. Hell, I will go out and buy a different player if need be.

Edit: I mean, if it turns out that it could be heard then I will buy a different player.

[dfkt]

The frequency deviation has been fixed in Rockbox in the meantime, it's much more precise than the stock firmware.

[Sonic Atrocity]

Yes, it is better than the stock firmware but is it good enough? I can't help but think it isn't good enough. The human ear (as far as I know) can detect very small deviations in sound. Keep in mind any deviation in frequency is also (hand-in-hand) a deviation in playback speed.

[Pennhaven]

Originally Posted by Sonic Atrocity

Yes, it is better than the stock firmware but is it good enough? I can't help but think it isn't good enough. The human ear (as far as I know) can detect very small deviations in sound. Keep in mind any deviation in frequency is also (hand-in-hand) a deviation in playback speed.

If dfkt says it's "fixed", it's fixed.

If it wasn't, I think you can rest assured there would still be (other compulsive ) people complaining about it.

[skip252]

The last graphs say that it shouldn't be audible. It's better than the OF but not perfect. I haven't read a complaint about a audible pitch variation since the last pitch fix was put into Rockbox. However it would be up to you and your ears to determine if a variation that small is audible to you.

If you need perfect you may want to get another player that tests as 100% perfect like the Cowon S9 in the first post. If the knowledge that the player isn't reproducing a 100% perfect signal bothers you then the additional expense may be worth your peace of mind.

[saratoga]

Originally Posted by Sonic Atrocity

Yes, it is better than the stock firmware but is it good enough?

Its about as good as anything else out there.

Originally Posted by Sonic Atrocity

The human ear (as far as I know) can detect very small deviations in sound.

Not really. Thats why people use tuning forks. We can perceive differences in pitch, but absolute pitch is enormously more difficult to perceive. Hence the vast majority of people can't even hear the (very large) pitch error in the original firmware.

[Sonic Atrocity]

Awww crap. I think I'm getting a new player then. I am way too compulsive about this stuff. :P :P :P

[Enigmatic]

Originally Posted by Sonic Atrocity

The human ear (as far as I know) can detect very small deviations in sound.

http://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_index.php.

[dfkt]

Indeed, nobody can hear those differences on the Clip+ with Rockbox. This is a futile discussion.

[Sonic Atrocity]

So, you think I'm being ridiculous? :P I am most concerned with hearing incredibly small deviations in "noise" segments (in songs) and slower parts. Really, I wonder if it somehow buries this "deviation" in my subconscious that affects my musicianship (musicianship being my listening of, studying of, writing of, playing of, etc. music). Does this somehow pollute that?

I really am a big believer in fidelity - pun intended. :P

[epithetless]

Originally Posted by Sonic Atrocity

So, you think I'm being ridiculous? :P

Yep!

[Enigmatic]

Originally Posted by Sonic Atrocity

So, you think I'm being ridiculous? :P

Yes.

I am most concerned with hearing incredibly small deviations in "noise" segments (in songs) and slower parts.

You do not have to. The Clip+ with Rockbox sounds neutral.

Really, I wonder if it somehow buries this "deviation" in my subconscious that affects my musicianship (musicianship being my listening of, studying of, writing of, playing of, etc. music).

A more plausible possibility is that you are worrying over nothing.

Does this somehow pollute that?

There is no widespread agreement that it does. There is no evidence that supports your position. You are much better off worrying about audio devices that have large amounts of distortion that do not require the subconscious: they are easily heard.

I really am a big believer in fidelity - pun intended. :P

http://www.anythingbutipod.com/forum...1&postcount=34.

[Sonic Atrocity]

Originally Posted by Enigmatic

Yes.You do not have to. The Clip+ with Rockbox sounds neutral.[/URL].

The frequency response is not what I am concerned about but instead the playback/pitch deviation of 0.25% that the Clip+ has. I listen to music that has a lot of noise segments - no time signature. Instead just samples of noises (ie: people playing in a park) and there are often very subtle intricacies (that I enjoy thoroughly) and I wonder if they'd be ever so slightly audibly altered.

I worry that those subtle intricacies could be altered and consequently the sonic experience is lessened.

By the way, the artist I listen to that does this sometimes is Devin Townsend and he does this a lot on the album Terria.