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  #41  
Old 09-24-2009, 05:05 PM
Mikerman Mikerman is offline
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Actually, the Clip's price is so relatively lower that a "future firmware" fund could have been built into the price to begin with and I don't think that anyone would have noticed or felt any pain. But I agree: manufacturer continuing fix and development support for many products, including DAPs, is a scarce commodity. Went through this with the iRiver original hard drive players. It's a sad thing to me.
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  #42  
Old 09-24-2009, 05:23 PM
Kohlrabi Kohlrabi is offline
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Originally Posted by defaultluser View Post
Okay. Now get the thousands of other Clip owners to agree, and we have a deal. Except, those thousands of Clip owners would just buy another (cheaper) player, because they don't care. You'd be surprised how small a minority you are.
It always starts with an minority, at least now several users won't buy or recommend Sansa players. Considering that some of the users here might be the guys who get asked by friends and relatives about hardware and audio hardware this can easily impact sales later. I'm still not sure why Sandisk rather wants the badmouthing and bad publicity than ship a fix they already implemented (recording to their forum admins).

I'm still waiting on a statement from abi about their player ranking of 2008. I bought the Clip also because of the rave review here, but the software is garbage (no gapless playback, no folder browsing, errors reading some tags (probably id3v2.4 and some VorbisComments)) and also the sound quality has obvious flaws.
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  #43  
Old 09-24-2009, 07:50 PM
Mikerman Mikerman is offline
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As much as I would like SanDisk to issue at least a final firmware revision for the original Clip, bringing the improvements of the Clip+'s firmware to the Clip, I would also have to say that the Clip didn't promise to have gapless or folder browsing in the future. I don't believe that the ABI review misrepresented these aspects. And I personally don't notice a pitch issue, much as I still would like to see a pitch bug fix.
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  #44  
Old 09-24-2009, 08:58 PM
Mikerman Mikerman is offline
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Further SanDisk clarification of the issue (by SanDisk employee and forum moderator slotmonsta) at the SanDisk Clip forum:
Quote:
<hr>niko_sama wrote:
Why did they shelf the work that had already ben done. They have the fix.. They did tests on the fix. They had quantifiable numbers regarding the fix. 7 months ago. What happened? I believe Sansa dropped the ball on this one and i can't understand the logic. You had the fix.. Why not takecare of your customers, and improve your product.
<hr>
The improvement for this issue was never actually coded into the firmware. There was a potential improvement identified however this actually never made it in to the code. There is no elusive firmware that is sitting on the shelf.
FYI, sansafix is no longer working with SanDisk. (If you will notice the VIP status was removed from his account and he has not posted lately) Some comments that were made, although well intended, may not have actually made it in to production.
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  #45  
Old 09-24-2009, 10:45 PM
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Marvin the Martian Marvin the Martian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defaultluser View Post
What the hell people, you're bitching about a pitch error of %0.2 on the new Clip+?

IT IS A SUB-$100 BEATER MP3 PLAYER! WHAT DO YOU EXPECT?

In any case, this is an order of magnitude improvement over the old Clip, which was regarded to have a pitch error of %2. A %0.2 pitch error is so small even an audiophile wouldn't notice it, and the playback difference would be a paltry 0.12 seconds per minute!

Really, you people should read the whiny posts you make sometimes. Sure, it doesn't match-up exactly with the other players in the roundup, but it's so small a difference that it's not worth bitching about.

THEY FIXED THE ERROR ON THE CLIP PLUS. THEY ARE NOT GOING TO FIX THE ERROR ON THE CLIP BECAUSE THEY CAN ONLY AFFORD TO FIX SO MUCH ON A CHEAP-ASS AUDIO PLAYER. Yes, it is a "free" fix to port to the Clip, but if they do that it removes value in enticing you to upgrade to the new Clip+. Since you are not going to pay extra for the firmware fix (imagine the screaming and yelling you people would do if Sandisk started CHARGING for firmware updates), you are not going to get the fix for your Clip.

Can we all go home now?
They not only did not fix the error, they stated that they were not going to, even on the new player.

I never could hear the pitch offset with my ears, on my Fuze, or either of my Clips. That is not why I sold them, either. I would not have been surprised or upset if they had come out and said, "The Clip is what it is, so we're working on improving the Clip+".

But the fact that they said they are not going to fix even the brand new player, after acknowledging the issue existed....I find this morally repugnant.

I had toyed with the idea of getting a Clip+ next spring as an outdoor beater-type player, where the failings of the Sansa EQ(the reason I sold my Sansas) would be less noticeable.

But after they've come out with this stance, I say they can go pound sand in their "slot"
Samsung and Sony ftw
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  #46  
Old 09-25-2009, 01:53 AM
dgb52 dgb52 is offline
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OMG!!! the pitch of the clip is off , the end of the world must be coming.

i wonder how many people can actually notice the difference i know i can't

i guess i do not understand the outrage over this, there is more important things going on in the world than this
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  #47  
Old 09-25-2009, 08:32 AM
Mikerman Mikerman is offline
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If this was with a no-name player, I think it would be one thing. But the fact that the Clip is highly-regarded and that SanDisk will not fix the issue, which to some people (e.g. musicians) especially is real, is what I think bothers some.
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  #48  
Old 09-25-2009, 09:08 AM
Kohlrabi Kohlrabi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikerman View Post
As much as I would like SanDisk to issue at least a final firmware revision for the original Clip, bringing the improvements of the Clip+'s firmware to the Clip, I would also have to say that the Clip didn't promise to have gapless or folder browsing in the future. I don't believe that the ABI review misrepresented these aspects. And I personally don't notice a pitch issue, much as I still would like to see a pitch bug fix.
I know that this stuff wasn't tested, but I find it a questionable practice not to take gapless playback into account.
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  #49  
Old 09-25-2009, 09:26 AM
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I should get my Clip+ next week, and I sure am going to test it thoroughly vs. the old Clip, RMAA and pitch.

Not that I care about that tiny pitch difference at all - it's a more than negligible flaw for me. The shabby EQ and lack of pan/balance and gapless are far more relevant issues for me.
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  #50  
Old 09-25-2009, 12:12 PM
defaultluser defaultluser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschen View Post
So wait, does this concern the Clip+ now or not?
Not unless you're a musician, and you're going to use gtune to make sure your guitar is pitched exactly to ten decimal places. For %99.9 percent of users, the problem does not exist on the new Clip+

A more thorough explanation:

The Clip+ has a %0.25 frequency variance, which is ten times less than the old Clip. Unlike the old Clip, this error is below the threshold of human cognition (about %0.3), and people only notice it because, in sound production we have software that can catch these sort of things (it's a lot more sensitive than a human ear).

People complain because the %0.25 number is high compared to other mp3 players, but that doesn't matter unless you're fixated on having absolute perfect frequency reproduction. If the error is below the threshold of hearing, it's not really important, is it?

People of course ignore that fact that the Clip+ has exceptional flat full-range frequency response, with excellent highs and lows - something many other mp3 players can't deliver. EXAMPLE: I would rather listen to my Clip+ than my old e280 v1 because the e280 v1 has the worst DAC in the world, which I can actually hear. This tiny pitch difference on the Clip+, on the other hand...nobody can hear.
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  #51  
Old 09-25-2009, 12:23 PM
defaultluser defaultluser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikerman View Post
If this was with a no-name player, I think it would be one thing. But the fact that the Clip is highly-regarded and that SanDisk will not fix the issue, which to some people (e.g. musicians) especially is real, is what I think bothers some.
I understand your pain on the Clip, because the problem has been documented as 10x larger. That's a real issue, and although I understand why Sandisk withheld the fix (money), I agree that something this big should have been fixed.

I only responded to this thread because I was pissed-off at the FUD being spread about the Clip+ by people who are still pissed about their treatment with the Clip. It is confusing new users who just want simple answers about the Clip+, not a biography about why you hate Sandisk.

The fact is, the Clip+ frequency accuracy is much improved over the Clip, and since this is probably the only major complaint voiced, it makes the Clip+ a damn fine mp3 player.
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  #52  
Old 09-25-2009, 01:40 PM
Mikerman Mikerman is offline
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I must say, I'm amused by one of the tags that someone added to the thread: "epic fail by sandisk."

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  #53  
Old 09-25-2009, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikerman View Post
I must say, I'm amused by one of the tags that someone added to the thread: "epic fail by sandisk."

I have to agree!! Made me laugh the other day
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  #54  
Old 09-25-2009, 05:10 PM
Malix Malix is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defaultluser View Post
The fact is, the Clip+ frequency accuracy is much improved over the Clip
Where exactly did you get this fact from?
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  #55  
Old 09-25-2009, 06:37 PM
Mikerman Mikerman is offline
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Malix, in a thread at the SanDisk Clip+ forum, a couple of testing results:

message 4, in http://forums.sandisk.com/sansa/boar...cending&page=1

message 30, in http://forums.sandisk.com/sansa/boar...cending&page=3
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  #56  
Old 09-26-2009, 12:47 PM
d_headshot d_headshot is offline
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I'm curious to know how many people actually notice the problem. The fact that sandisk won't be fixing this problem seems annoying but you people are taking this too seriously. Taking off the #1 player of the year or not buying any more sansa products isn't going to do anything. They'll just focus their resources on products other than the sansa line and then we won't have any more players at all. Is that what you want? Instead, you people should petition or whatever ONLY about the pitch issue, not the entire player.
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  #57  
Old 09-26-2009, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d_headshot View Post
I'm curious to know how many people actually notice the problem. ...
I can’t tell with my ears but I think it’s really bad on their part to ignore it and the whole way they’ve handled the issue, acting pompous with their legally reviewed statement. Will I get other sansa products, maybe but not in the near future, got my eye on a pico slim & i9 ftw

BTW, I'm not selling the 5 sansa's I have now, although only 4 are clips
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  #58  
Old 09-26-2009, 03:42 PM
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Geraldo35 Geraldo35 is offline
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Everyone has to do what is right for them. If you are happy with your Sandisk players, by all means, I'm certainly not going to tell you that you shouldn't. That's great if you don't notice the difference in pitch, and it's also great if you can handle their official response to the issue.

I can only do what I feel is right for me. There are plenty of capable players in the marketplace, so I feel very comfortable in my decision to sell my Sandisk players and move on.

This is an extremely personal issue for all of us.
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  #59  
Old 09-26-2009, 04:00 PM
Kohlrabi Kohlrabi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defaultluser View Post
I only responded to this thread because I was pissed-off at the FUD being spread about the Clip+ by people who are still pissed about their treatment with the Clip. It is confusing new users who just want simple answers about the Clip+, not a biography about why you hate Sandisk.
Let it stand as a warning to people to how Sandisk regards their customer base and semi-old product line.
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  #60  
Old 09-26-2009, 04:21 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geraldo35 View Post
I can only do what I feel is right for me. There are plenty of capable players in the marketplace, so I feel very comfortable in my decision to sell my Sandisk players and move on.

This is an extremely personal issue for all of us.
Its an MP3 player firmware update not a kidney transplant.
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