android
Go Back   abi>>forums > MP3 Players > General MP3 Player / PMP Discussion

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 09-08-2009, 11:21 PM
paulr paulr is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 144
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by no9 View Post
Although I do see a want out there for your AA player that thread has 18 posts by you and 8 by another guy telling you how worthless and unneeded it would be. Also a view of the thread doesn't make all that much of a difference to anything. You yourself probably viewed it atleast 200 times. The odds of any of the big companies making a high profile player that takes AA or AAA batteries is pretty slim. Your in the 2% range for consumer demand and nobody with any sense makes players for that small of a demand.
Dude, 90% of consumer demand is probably for ipods. If I can have 20% of the non-ipod market (that 2% of the total market that you mention) I'd be a rich man. That's probably more players than a niche company like Cowon sells across its whole line.

There are in fact tons of AAA players made, it's just that the ones being made today all suck. The Sansa M200 series were great for their time and they did quite well as I recall. If they made a modern version I'd grab it in a second. But they just make that Slotmusic thing.

As for the Fuze: I have one on order (woot refrob) but mainly want it as a rockbox host.

Advertisement [Remove Advertisement]

  #22  
Old 09-08-2009, 11:43 PM
no9's Avatar
no9 no9 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: West Michigan
Posts: 1,098
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulr View Post
Dude, 90% of consumer demand is probably for ipods. If I can have 20% of the non-ipod market (that 2% of the total market that you mention) I'd be a rich man. That's probably more players than a niche company like Cowon sells across its whole line.

There are in fact tons of AAA players made, it's just that the ones being made today all suck. The Sansa M200 series were great for their time and they did quite well as I recall. If they made a modern version I'd grab it in a second. But they just make that Slotmusic thing.

As for the Fuze: I have one on order (woot refrob) but mainly want it as a rockbox host.
Dude, Where are all these tons of players that are in production by major company's? Show me some new players made by major manufacturers Samsung, Sony, Sandisk, Cowon, Microsoft, Creative, or any other major companys don't seem to make them. Sure the slot music player but that's hardly even usable. Nobody makes them anymore unless it's a junk player from China, and even they hardly make them.
If one of these companys has 6% of the total market and 2% of their customers whine and beg for AA powered players the odds of it ever being made for those 300 people is worse than your odds of winning the lotto.
__________________
Cowon S9,Sansa Clip+,
Sansa Fuze,Westone UM2,Altec Lansing UHP336

  #23  
Old 09-09-2009, 09:55 AM
saratoga saratoga is offline
Rockbox Developer / Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,625
Default

Its probably more like 2% of the non-Ipod market that wants AA batteries.

Its a generational thing. People who buy MP3 players are young, and young people expect devices to have integrated batteries, since they don't remember the old days before lithium ion batteries.

  #24  
Old 09-09-2009, 11:41 AM
JK98 JK98 is online now
Ultra Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,046
Default

Not quite.

Perhaps you could explain to me why we don't see any digital cameras with a built in battery, and the only cell phones with a built in battery are from Apple. There is great value in using a battery that is easily swappable. Charging a battery outside the device is also very beneficial to the longevity of electronics items. Notice that many Canon cameras come with a wall charger that charges the battery outside the camera.

Are mp3 player users so different from those who use digital cameras and cell phones? There are many models of digital cameras that use AA batteries, ranging from compact shirt pocket sized models to SLRs made by Pentax. Is it logical to say that many people love having a AA battery powered digital camera, however they wouldn't want a AA battery powered mp3 player?

Last edited by JK98; 09-09-2009 at 11:48 AM.

  #25  
Old 09-09-2009, 12:06 PM
FreeZ5's Avatar
FreeZ5 FreeZ5 is offline
Ultra Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,508
Default

Since I own an assortment of Canon digital cameras, I want to point out that the lithium batteries seem to last a lot longer than rechargable AAs (that camera uses 4 AAs).

Yes I wouldn't mind a nice little mp3 player that takes rechargable batteries, I would want the specialty lithium(or whatever) rather than AAs. Oh and one of those canon batteries is almost the size of my Clip.

Steve

  #26  
Old 09-09-2009, 12:17 PM
JK98 JK98 is online now
Ultra Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,046
Default

"Since I own an assortment of Canon digital cameras, I want to point out that the lithium batteries seem to last a lot longer than rechargable AAs (that camera uses 4 AAs)."


Does it? I doubt it. Four AA nimh 2900 mah batteries provide 13.92 watt hours of power. Does the Canon lion battery have more power than this?

The Canon LP-E5 battery for the Rebel XS and Xsi is Rated at 7.4V, 1080mAh and is $45! It only has 57% of the power of 4 AA 2900 mah batteries yet it is more than triple the price of 3 of those sets of the AAs.


I am not averse to lithium batteries though, as long as they are easily swappablem, spares are easy to find, and preferably that the batteries are inexpensive. There are some lithium ion batteries that hold plenty of power and are inexpensive, sunch a the 18650
battery that is 3.7 volts, 2600 mah, and under $5 each. A charger that charges one or two 18650 batteries at a time is under $10.

Last edited by JK98; 09-09-2009 at 12:46 PM.

  #27  
Old 09-09-2009, 01:08 PM
FreeZ5's Avatar
FreeZ5 FreeZ5 is offline
Ultra Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,508
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JK98 View Post
"Since I own an assortment of Canon digital cameras, I want to point out that the lithium batteries seem to last a lot longer than rechargable AAs (that camera uses 4 AAs)."

Does it? I doubt it. Four AA nimh 2900 mah batteries provide 13.92 watt hours of power. Does the Canon lion battery have more power than this?
I have used the lithium powered camera and the AA powered camera at some baseball games recently. The lithium powered battery seemed to last a lot longer than the AA batteries. As in I had to use spare rechargable AAs, I didn't have to use the spare lithium abttery. That's two sets of AA in one game, and one lithium in two games PLUS how ever long before, and some pics taken afterwards. Many fireworks pics and some movies taken with the lithium battery camera.

I know that is not a scientific comparison because conditions were not the same, but I just feel that the lithium batty lasts longer.

I'm talking about the ratings, I'm talking my experience.

Steve

  #28  
Old 09-09-2009, 01:18 PM
JK98 JK98 is online now
Ultra Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,046
Default

" have used the lithium powered camera and the AA powered camera at some baseball games recently. The lithium powered battery seemed to last a lot longer than the AA batteries. "

Those cameras didn't have the same power consumption though. Look at the watt hours of the different batteries.

Not all rechargeable AA batteries are the same. Some hold a relatively small amount of power and don't work well. Since even the best nimh batteries are still inexpensive, only consider the best ones. Some digital cameras only use 2 AA batteries at a time and not 4. Lithium ion batteries have around double the power density of nimh batteries. They are often so much more expensive though that saving a bit of space isn't worth the much higher price. Lithium ion batteries also take so much longer to charge. Some chargers will charge nimh batteries in just 15 minutes.

  #29  
Old 09-14-2009, 01:24 AM
Marvin the Martian's Avatar
Marvin the Martian Marvin the Martian is offline
Ultra Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: east central NY state
Posts: 10,602
Default

I know this is probably more than most people would need, but it's worth a look.
(this will expire in 22 hours)
18000mAhbatterystation
__________________
iPod Touch 5G 32GB, Touch 4G 32GB, Clip Sport 8GB. Rockbox-> Clip Zip 4GB, iPod Nano 2G 4GB, iPod 5.5G 80GB
2012 Nexus 7 32GB, Asus MeMoPad 8 16+64GB, LG Optimus G Pro, Nokia Lumia 900 and Lumia 520

  #30  
Old 09-14-2009, 10:09 AM
saratoga saratoga is offline
Rockbox Developer / Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,625
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JK98 View Post
Are mp3 player users so different from those who use digital cameras and cell phones?
Yes, they're much younger, which is what I was getting at above.

And anyway the comparison to cameras is a little silly. Cameras are necessarily large compared to MP3 players due to the optics. Adding a bulkier battery assembly doesn't involve the design trade offs it would on a typical MP3 player.

  #31  
Old 09-14-2009, 01:31 PM
quintets_man's Avatar
quintets_man quintets_man is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: IL
Posts: 533
Default

I don't see how having rechargeable AA batteries would be any easier than a lithium powered battery.

I mean you seem to hate having to connect a player to a computer or wall charger to charge, yet you have no problem with taking out the batteries and connecting them to a wall charger.

Are you saying that it's really that much of a hassle to a wait a few hours for a DAP to charge?

  #32  
Old 09-14-2009, 08:34 PM
JK98 JK98 is online now
Ultra Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,046
Default

"I don't see how having rechargeable AA batteries would be any easier than a lithium powered battery. "

With a AA battery, one can quickly swap the battery with a charged one. It is easy to find a charger that will charge up to 4 AA batteries at a time in just 15 minutes.

"I mean you seem to hate having to connect a player to a computer or wall charger to charge, yet you have no problem with taking out the batteries and connecting them to a wall charger. "

Two reasons for this. Many AA battery chargers chargs the batteries much faster than a lithium battery is charged, and the most important reason, which is that the heat produced from charging a battery is not being generated in my mp3 player. Canon has realized that the heat from charging a battery inside a camera would put extra stress on its circuitry, and therefore has designed many of its camers so the battery is removed from the camera and charged in a wall charger. Charging an mp3 player battery outside the player would also allow full portable use of the player while a battery for it is charging.

  #33  
Old 09-15-2009, 12:45 AM
copeys's Avatar
copeys copeys is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Newcastle, NSW
Posts: 994
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JK98 View Post
With a AA battery, one can quickly swap the battery with a charged one. It is easy to find a charger that will charge up to 4 AA batteries at a time in just 15 minutes.

Two reasons for this. Many AA battery chargers chargs the batteries much faster than a lithium battery is charged, and the most important reason, which is that the heat produced from charging a battery is not being generated in my mp3 player. Canon has realized that the heat from charging a battery inside a camera would put extra stress on its circuitry, and therefore has designed many of its camers so the battery is removed from the camera and charged in a wall charger. Charging an mp3 player battery outside the player would also allow full portable use of the player while a battery for it is charging.
I am an average consumer:

-I don't want to pull my device apart each time it goes flat. I want to plug something into it, and it will charge itself. Minimal fuss.

-I don't want to be paying for extra batteries after the initial purchase of the device I am paying a hefty fee for. More money is bad.

-I don't care about having to buy a battery after the initial one dies. Heck, I find this an excuse to buy an extra piece of gadgetry.


This is what the average consumer wants. This is what will be a money-spinner for companies. I understand you have different wants and different needs, but please understand that the big businesses will aim their products at the majority of the population and that to change their way of thinking, you will most likely have to change the populations... Which I am thinking you are having a lot of trouble doing. I appreciate your enthusiasm and passion, but you seem to only be concentrating on the facts about batteries - charging and how easy it is to replace and keep going.

The problem is as I said above, this is not what the average consumer wants.

I am not saying to stop your campaigning or passion, but just realise that the consumer decides what is going to become popular, and at the moment I think that inbuilt batteries are the go. Now, if this changes, I will be happy to apologize to you.

I am sorry if it comes off mean, I am not trying to be rude or arrogant. But this is where the market is headed.
__________________
Gear: ZuneHD 32GB, Creative ZVM 30GB, iPod Classic 120GB, iPhone 4s 16GB, iPad (3rdGen)16GB Wifi
Don't understand the above?
Try reading this: Aussie Talk
Or this: A glossary for newbies
-Stuart, Twitter

Last edited by copeys; 09-15-2009 at 12:53 AM.

  #34  
Old 09-15-2009, 04:06 AM
Dreamnine Dreamnine is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Scotland, EU
Posts: 3,225
Default

To me, this obsession with regular batteries is just plain bizarre - it doesn't make any sense at all except, perhaps, as an indication of underlying mental illness.

  #35  
Old 09-16-2009, 12:38 AM
JK98 JK98 is online now
Ultra Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,046
Default

"I don't want to pull my device apart each time it goes flat. I want to plug something into it, and it will charge itself. Minimal fuss. "

snapping out a battery that is intended to be easily removed is easy.

"I don't want to be paying for extra batteries after the initial purchase of the device I am paying a hefty fee for. More money is bad.

"I don't want to be paying for extra batteries after the initial purchase of the device I am paying a hefty fee for. More money is bad."

If an item has a removable rechargeable battery, one isn't required to buy spare batteries. They have the option to do so if they wish though.

"I don't care about having to buy a battery after the initial one dies. Heck, I find this an excuse to buy an extra piece of gadgetry."

Not everyone feels that way. Many people want to keep using a player they like.

"This is what the average consumer wants"

I disagree. It may be what you want, but not what most people want.

"This is what will be a money-spinner for companies"

Perhaps it might earn more money for companies, however I don't see having a built in battery being good for the consumer.

"but just realise that the consumer decides what is going to become popular"

Not necessarily, if a small number of companies control the industry.

"I am sorry if it comes off mean, I am not trying to be rude or arrogant. But this is where the market is headed. "

Things can change. If a major mp3 maker makes a model with an easily swappable battery and it is very successful, models from other companies will probably follow.

  #36  
Old 09-16-2009, 06:05 AM
Dreamnine Dreamnine is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Scotland, EU
Posts: 3,225
Default

Mintpad - you can just swap the battery out like a cell-phone http://www.advancedmp3players.co.uk/...=specification

  #37  
Old 09-16-2009, 07:20 AM
copeys's Avatar
copeys copeys is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Newcastle, NSW
Posts: 994
Default

JK98, the first half of your post I can understand your point of view, and I respect it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JK98 View Post
"This is what the average consumer wants"

I disagree. It may be what you want, but not what most people want.
I said average consumer. Average consumer's are part of the majority of consumers. I happen to fall into that category.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JK98 View Post
"but just realise that the consumer decides what is going to become popular"

Not necessarily, if a small number of companies control the industry.
I disagree. If a number of companies control the industry and produce a product that no-one wants, I can see that company either changing it's style - or dieing. It is happening with companies all around us. It is the consumer's decision. However, as you mention below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JK98 View Post
Things can change. If a major mp3 maker makes a model with an easily swappable battery and it is very successful, models from other companies will probably follow.
I totally agree with you, that if something is popular, it will be reproduced in a number of different forms. However, this does contradict your earlier statement, on how a company can depict what they make, and that consumers will buy from them.
__________________
Gear: ZuneHD 32GB, Creative ZVM 30GB, iPod Classic 120GB, iPhone 4s 16GB, iPad (3rdGen)16GB Wifi
Don't understand the above?
Try reading this: Aussie Talk
Or this: A glossary for newbies
-Stuart, Twitter

  #38  
Old 09-16-2009, 09:56 AM
WalkGood's Avatar
WalkGood WalkGood is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: FL
Posts: 12,579
Default

There’s just not enough space for replaceable batteries, having that idea in mind is old school and the birth of small and thin players as small as the clip wouldn’t be :/

Thank goodness the companies don’t listen to this rant
__________________
WalkGood,
Ramón

abi >> | Forum Rules | Glossary | Why Rockbox | FLAC or MP3? | irc

  #39  
Old 09-16-2009, 10:40 AM
no9's Avatar
no9 no9 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: West Michigan
Posts: 1,098
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamnine View Post
To me, this obsession with regular batteries is just plain bizarre - it doesn't make any sense at all except, perhaps, as an indication of underlying mental illness.
You might be on to something......

Quote:
Originally Posted by WalkGood View Post
There’s just not enough space for replaceable batteries, having that idea in mind is old school and the birth of small and thin players as small as the clip wouldn’t be :/

Thank goodness the companies don’t listen to this rant
They do still make portable cassette players, and guess what? http://www.amazon.com/Sony-WM-FX290-...3115414&sr=8-8
They take AA batteries!! Welcome from the future, back to 1992
__________________
Cowon S9,Sansa Clip+,
Sansa Fuze,Westone UM2,Altec Lansing UHP336

  #40  
Old 09-16-2009, 10:50 AM
JK98 JK98 is online now
Ultra Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,046
Default

"I said average consumer. Average consumer's are part of the majority of consumers. I happen to fall into that category. "

What makes you so sure your opinion is in line with the majority? Have you done some surveys?

"I disagree. If a number of companies control the industry and produce a product that no-one wants"


It is not a matter of a product being one that no one wants, but of being one that doesn't have preferred attributes. If consumers can't find one they like better, then they will choose from what is available rather than going without one. This is not optimal though.

Closed Thread

Tags
batteries, battery, beating a dead horse, eco-terrorism, jk98, replacement

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:39 PM.