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  #41  
Old 07-09-2009, 06:51 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Originally Posted by gcogger View Post
If some guys on a forum could tell you precisely what makes for good sound quality, I think the entire hifi industry would be out of business It's not a simple thing to tie down...
I disagree. For DACs its pretty easy. Anyone with RMAA and a half ok sound card can check. And for the most part we have very good output from DACs that probably cost much less then $1 in bulk.

Regarding hifi, theres a lot more to it then DACs. DACs are very, very easy to evaluate. Most things are much harder and much more subjective.
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  #42  
Old 07-10-2009, 03:43 AM
gcogger gcogger is offline
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Originally Posted by saratoga View Post
I disagree. For DACs its pretty easy. Anyone with RMAA and a half ok sound card can check. And for the most part we have very good output from DACs that probably cost much less then $1 in bulk.

Regarding hifi, theres a lot more to it then DACs. DACs are very, very easy to evaluate. Most things are much harder and much more subjective.
I'm afraid I disagree with your disagreement

Yes, we can measure what comes out of a DAC, but correlating those measurements with perceived sound quality, and indeed even knowing what to measure, are by no means a settled issue in the world of audio/hifi. If that were the case, there wouldn't be such a range of hifi DACs available and everyone would be buying them from China for £10

Most DACs also have some analogue circuitry after the DAC chip and, again, there's no real agreement on what makes for a 'good' line stage.

While there is a degree of marketing BS in the world of audio, I've experienced first hand how two bits of kit that measure pretty much the same can sound very different.
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  #43  
Old 07-10-2009, 02:12 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Originally Posted by gcogger View Post
Yes, we can measure what comes out of a DAC, but correlating those measurements with perceived sound quality, and indeed even knowing what to measure, are by no means a settled issue in the world of audio/hifi.
I think you're a bit confused here. The output of DACs is a settled issue. Theres never been any debate here. What comes out should be what is recorded. If you don't get what you recorded, the DAC just isn't any good. The closer you get to the recording, the better the DAC. It really is that simple.

I think whats happening here is that you're mixing up discussions on speakers, where reproducing the exact recorded field is neither possible nor desirable with DACs. Be careful. They're very different devices and you should not assume that what applies to one applies to another.

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Originally Posted by gcogger View Post
If that were the case, there wouldn't be such a range of hifi DACs available and everyone would be buying them from China for £10
Everyone is buying DACs for China, typically for much less then 10 pounds. Thats a fortune to spend on such a small IC . . .

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Originally Posted by gcogger View Post
Most DACs also have some analogue circuitry after the DAC chip
Err most Digital to Analog converters have analog components? Only "most"? Sure you don't want to go with "all"? Again are you sure you're not mixing up something else here with DACs?

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Originally Posted by gcogger View Post
While there is a degree of marketing BS in the world of audio, I've experienced first hand how two bits of kit that measure pretty much the same can sound very different.
Obviously either your experience or your measurements are wrong, since contradictions don't exist, only bad assumptions
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  #44  
Old 07-10-2009, 02:35 PM
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I think he's mixing the proper meaning of DAC (a chip that does the described conversion job in a circuit) with the silly "audiophile" meaning of the acronym, where "DAC" replaced the meaning of "sound card". Pars pro toto, so to say.
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  #45  
Old 07-10-2009, 02:37 PM
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Welcome to ABI-Fi,...........................at least that's what it's starting to SOUND LIKE!!!

***as usual, I know this comment will be deleted***
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  #46  
Old 07-10-2009, 02:55 PM
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Welcome to ABI-Fi,...........................at least that's what it's starting to SOUND LIKE!!!

***as usual, I know this comment will be deleted***
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  #47  
Old 07-10-2009, 02:59 PM
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The comment won't be deleted, but it doesn't add anything to the discussion.
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  #48  
Old 07-12-2009, 08:05 PM
gcogger gcogger is offline
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Edit:

I had written out a full set of responses to saratoga's and dfkt's posts but, on reflection, you guys seem determined to make me out to be an idiot regardless, so I'm out of here. Now I remember why I rarely get involved in forum discussions Please feel free to claim you won the argument

(Anyone who's interested in my views can just read what I actually wrote, not what people responded to).

Last edited by gcogger; 07-13-2009 at 02:58 AM.
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  #49  
Old 07-13-2009, 03:25 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Originally Posted by gcogger View Post
I had written out a full set of responses to saratoga's and dfkt's posts but, on reflection, you guys seem determined to make me out to be an idiot regardless, so I'm out of here.
I'm not calling you an idiot, I'm trying to explain to you how these things actually work. Theres a very big difference between mocking someone and trying to explain something to them. I think you should try a little harder to remember the difference. You'll learn a lot more if you keep an open mind.

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Originally Posted by gcogger View Post
Now I remember why I rarely get involved in forum discussions Please feel free to claim you won the argument
This isn't about winning an argument, its about helping people understand audio. You don't do that by getting angry at people who disagree with you.
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  #50  
Old 07-13-2009, 10:16 PM
redroses redroses is offline
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Thanks for the comment bigbird. I couldn’t agree more. A little helpful information never hurt anybody!
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  #51  
Old 07-14-2009, 05:34 AM
gcogger gcogger is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saratoga View Post
I'm not calling you an idiot, I'm trying to explain to you how these things actually work. Theres a very big difference between mocking someone and trying to explain something to them. I think you should try a little harder to remember the difference. You'll learn a lot more if you keep an open mind.
And therein lies the problem. A discussion is about free exchange of ideas. You assume that, because I disagree, it's up to you to "explain to you how these things actually work". Considering you don't even know my skills and experience, I find that rather arrogant. That doesn't sound like you are keeping an open mind.

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Originally Posted by saratoga View Post
This isn't about winning an argument, its about helping people understand audio. You don't do that by getting angry at people who disagree with you.
There's no anger involved. I simply can't be bothered to get involved in a discussion with someone that talks down to me. No big deal.

And as I implied in my previous post, I think that's me done for this thread, as I also can't be bothered to get further involved in this discussion. Again, no big deal, I just prefer to walk away from these things rather than let them drag on. Let's just agree to disagree, shall we?
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  #52  
Old 07-14-2009, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gcogger View Post
Yes, we can measure what comes out of a DAC, but correlating those measurements with perceived sound quality, and indeed even knowing what to measure, are by no means a settled issue in the world of audio/hifi.
It is a settled issue—things like frequency response, signal-to-noise ratio, total harmonic distortion, etc. In double-blind listening tests of CD players, if laboratory measurements predict that no one should be able to consistently hear a difference, no one has been able to consistently hear a difference. This is similar with amplifiers: http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf.
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  #53  
Old 07-14-2009, 03:30 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Originally Posted by gcogger View Post
And therein lies the problem. A discussion is about free exchange of ideas. You assume that, because I disagree, it's up to you to "explain to you how these things actually work".
This is a thread about how DACs work. If I disagree with you then it is up to me to explain why you are wrong rather then let you mislead others. Thats how ideas work and are exchanged. Its up to people posting in this thread to do that. Honestly I'm amazed you think a free exchange of ideas should not involve me exchanging ideas with you.

If you have a problem with that, why are you even reading the thread? Go read a thread about something else where people won't bother you about audio!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gcogger View Post
Considering you don't even know my skills and experience, I find that rather arrogant. That doesn't sound like you are keeping an open mind.
I don't need to know your background to post in this thread. And honestly, given that you are the one angrily attacking other people for disagreeing, I think its rather hypocritical of you to say I'm closed minded. I've carefully considered your arguments and offered a detailed reply.

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Originally Posted by gcogger View Post
There's no anger involved. I simply can't be bothered to get involved in a discussion with someone that talks down to me. No big deal.
This is false, since you are involved in this discussion. Clearly you can be bothered or you wouldn't be here.

And again, stop taking everyone disagreeing with you as a personal attack. I'm respectfully correcting you, not talking down to you. We're not children, there is a difference.

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Originally Posted by gcogger View Post
And as I implied in my previous post, I think that's me done for this thread, as I also can't be bothered to get further involved in this discussion.
This is the second post in a row that you've said you're done posting. This is exactly what I was getting at before. These threads aren't about petty arguments where you win by having the last word or by shouting the loudest. They're about discussing audio. If you're not interested in contributing, then perhaps you should keep your word and stop posting.
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  #54  
Old 07-14-2009, 04:04 PM
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I just know my O2 ALWAYS sounds better than my ipod
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  #55  
Old 07-14-2009, 04:50 PM
h1a8 h1a8 is offline
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I think I know Sansa Clip's secret to getting a clean frequency line.
I think they use a true line out in the headphone jack.
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  #56  
Old 07-14-2009, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h1a8 View Post
I think I know Sansa Clip's secret to getting a clean frequency line.
I think they use a true line out in the headphone jack.
A nominal line level signal is only defined by the output voltage, nothing else. Consumer grade gear has a line-in/out of -10dBV, professional gear has +4dBu.

The Clip is pretty far from reaching those output levels. Furthermore, it of course does have a headphone amplifier built in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level
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  #57  
Old 07-15-2009, 12:26 PM
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The music you hear at monitoring studios and the music we listen to as hobbies are two different things.

Monitoring headphones are very detailed and pretty dull and much forwarded like my cd900st, it makes listening pretty boring but perfect use for monitoring.

But now that ur saying about phones made for our enjoyment, they're different and they have different tastes, like less/more bass, forward/back mids.

Good sound quality like headphones used in monitoring studio don't exactly results to better sound quality due to them pretty unexciting to hear.
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  #58  
Old 07-15-2009, 04:22 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h1a8 View Post
I think I know Sansa Clip's secret to getting a clean frequency line.
I think they use a true line out in the headphone jack.
You can't really listen to headphones on a real line out since the impedance is too high. Or if you try it'll be very quiet and somewhat distorted.

Of course sometimes headphone ports are used as line out, in which case they just lock the volume and call it line out, in which case you can of course use headphones
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  #59  
Old 07-15-2009, 05:18 PM
h1a8 h1a8 is offline
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Thanks but is it hard to make the frequency straight like what sansa clip is doing? Why do other players have bass roll off or humps near the high midrange? Do they think this would make the player sound better or do they think it gives more battery life? Or is it that Sansa uses a special chip for achieving this near straight frequency output?
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  #60  
Old 07-16-2009, 04:17 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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I think its a combination of a good DAC and putting it on the SOC so that the manufacturer doesn't get a chance to cut corners. But this is speculation on my part.
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