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  #381  
Old 08-18-2009, 11:14 PM
dreezy dreezy is offline
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Hello Dave, why was it made impossible to drag and drop from windows explorer to the zune device?
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  #382  
Old 08-19-2009, 04:10 AM
DaveMac-MS DaveMac-MS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olley View Post
Accessories. I know you can't give specifics, but can we expect an array of 3rd party or even MS accessories (cases, docks, etc.) on launch day? Anouncements even?
Yes, there'll be accessories for the Zune HD at launch.

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Originally Posted by Dan12R View Post
Dave, I was wondering if you could give some insight into why there's not support for .dvr-ms files that are created recording a broadcast off an ATSC tuner.
From the Zune HD spec sheet that was recently made public, and which lists supported codecs: "DVR-MS Zune software will transcode at time of sync".

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Originally Posted by Xiamhighx View Post
So Dave, the Apple keynote is rumored to be on september 9th, one week before the Zune HD release. Do you think the keynote could take the wind out of the sails? Or do you have more features under wraps?
I'm expecting the game to heat up when Apple announces their next generation products, but I'm very pleased with our position going into the holidays - let's leave it at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreezy View Post
Hello Dave, why was it made impossible to drag and drop from windows explorer to the zune device?
Well, I'm not sure it was an explicit design decision to not support the ability to drag and drop content on the Zune Media Player, as much as it was probably not a scenario the team felt they needed to urgently support. Remember you can point the software to any directory to read content into the library.

I don't want to start a flame war. I get that folks on here want drag/drop. Yes, there is no technical reason why that couldn't be achieved with MTP. No, there is no conspiracy theory here or hidden agenda. I don't believe there is anything you can do with drag/drop that you can't do a different way with the Zune Marketplace software (ie: point the software at the directory which you'd otherwise drag from).

Cheers, Dave.
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  #383  
Old 08-19-2009, 04:28 AM
Dreamnine Dreamnine is offline
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Most people here don't want software.
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  #384  
Old 08-19-2009, 07:28 AM
lossendae lossendae is offline
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Any news regarding MKV and FLAC support in future firmware?

(I think that MKV support will not be possible because the majors would be pretty unhappy about it)
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  #385  
Old 08-19-2009, 07:34 AM
Dan12R Dan12R is offline
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The fine print in regards to .dvr-ms files reads "Standard definition TV recordings from Windows Media Center. HDTV and protected recordings not supported. Must be running Zune Software 4.0 on Windows Vista Home Premium or Windows Vista Ultimate, or Windows 7." Everything I've ever come across broadcasted via ATSC falls under "HDTV" or apparently "Protected recordings" (because I can't get it on my Zune now, which I believe has the same fine print). Since NTSC is no longer a standard in the US, why not add support for the new standard? In fact, why even support it at all if there's no support for what's used today?
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  #386  
Old 08-19-2009, 10:58 AM
jouster jouster is offline
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Dave,

Many apologies if this has already been addressed, but is there digital out from the Zune HD? My hope is to run digital to my DAC and then on to my amp. I thought the dock might do this but haven't been able to confirm this.

Thanks and congrats on a great-looking device!
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  #387  
Old 08-19-2009, 03:38 PM
DaveMac-MS DaveMac-MS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamnine View Post
Most people here don't want software.
Well, everyone needs software. Some people just prefer that the software be the OS. That I get. But, as we've discussed over and over - it is VERY difficult to offer both that and a managed experience with client software that doesn't leave avenues open for less experienced users to lost/stuck in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan12R View Post
The fine print in regards to .dvr-ms files reads "Standard definition TV recordings from Windows Media Center. HDTV and protected recordings not supported. Must be running Zune Software 4.0 on Windows Vista Home Premium or Windows Vista Ultimate, or Windows 7." Everything I've ever come across broadcasted via ATSC falls under "HDTV" or apparently "Protected recordings" (because I can't get it on my Zune now, which I believe has the same fine print). Since NTSC is no longer a standard in the US, why not add support for the new standard? In fact, why even support it at all if there's no support for what's used today?
I'll need to dig into this. However, being able to record SDTV but not ATSC or HDTV smacks of licensing restrictions which are imposed on us by the content owners. I can't see a reason why MS would arbitrarily prevent you from having better quality content on a high fidelity device. But... that's just me supposin'. Lemme ask around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jouster View Post
Many apologies if this has already been addressed, but is there digital out from the Zune HD? My hope is to run digital to my DAC and then on to my amp. I thought the dock might do this but haven't been able to confirm this.

Thanks and congrats on a great-looking device!
Thanks for the congrats! Yes, the dock has SPDIF and HDMI for digital output.

Cheers, Dave.
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  #388  
Old 08-19-2009, 06:38 PM
crazyaxel21 crazyaxel21 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS View Post
Well, everyone needs software. Some people just prefer that the software be the OS. That I get. But, as we've discussed over and over - it is VERY difficult to offer both that and a managed experience with client software that doesn't leave avenues open for less experienced users to lost/stuck in.
I was seriously considering buying a Zune but week after week, and announcement after announcement i lose my appeal for the device...
I was well aware that you wouldnt be able (or want to to use MS language) to catch up with Apple about the appstore and all the little things an Itouch/IPhone can do but still the design was right, the Tegra was very cool and unlike Sony's joke of a player with the X-1000, your prices are excellent.

But to hear all the little itches about codecs (why bother spreading the HD trademark if you don't even mkv seriously...), drag & drop impossible? you gotta be kidding, how could someone get lost or stuck by drag droping a file but not by having to install a software, pointing a directory, syncing the device, finding the menus...

Still i don't want to look like i'm lashing at you, it's really pleasant to have someone from the inside talking to the "public" but man you've got the hardware specs and launch timing to be a great alternative to Ipods but i really think you messed up big time on those simple details that the community (please avoid the % of geeks users vs normal users ...) are asking and that should be a minimum recquired for a 2009 MP4 Player !

And i don't get how you manage to justify some decisions by functions=time=money when a) Chinese release dozens of multi functions players every weeks. Sure the quality may no be the best and i'm sure there's some specificities due to Nvidia's chip but we've known about Zune for more than a year, you had time to make it happen.
And b) How can money be a factor of limiting specs development when you're only releasing your player to the US, surely it must cost a bit more when you plan a world launch right?

Well, that's the end of my rant, i hope that your smileys are hiding something bigger that being able to put a Zune Originals Sticker on the device, otherwise you may find yourself quite far in the rankings and then ask yourself why all these efforts to fall so short just because of details...

Thank you for posting here though and i'm looking forward to read you till September

Last edited by no9; 08-19-2009 at 06:53 PM. Reason: Right or Wrong keep that opinion to yourself
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  #389  
Old 08-19-2009, 06:49 PM
clubdirthill clubdirthill is offline
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I'll just say I don't see the appeal of drag/drop, and I hope the Zune Team doesn't waste their time with it in the future. Its no easier than using the software (the software is actually better) and I assume the 4.0 software will make use of Windows 7 libraries, so all your music will be in one place for the software to access anyways. If you think installing the Zune software is a hassle than you have larger problems to deal with.
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  #390  
Old 08-19-2009, 07:11 PM
crazyaxel21 crazyaxel21 is offline
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Sure but i think you're missing the point.
It's not about what you prefer and it's not like drag/drop was something hard that took weeks to develop.
Its one of the most basic operations, you need time to make it impossible not the other way round.
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  #391  
Old 08-19-2009, 07:12 PM
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DarkPotato DarkPotato is offline
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Hi, I have a question. If I order the Zune HD with the custom engravings and etc. from Zune Originals, would it ship to Canada?
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  #392  
Old 08-19-2009, 08:53 PM
Ricardo Dawkins Ricardo Dawkins is offline
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Originally Posted by DarkPotato View Post
Hi, I have a question. If I order the Zune HD with the custom engravings and etc. from Zune Originals, would it ship to Canada?
No
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  #393  
Old 08-19-2009, 09:20 PM
CheeToS CheeToS is offline
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Originally Posted by clubdirthill View Post
I'll just say I don't see the appeal of drag/drop, and I hope the Zune Team doesn't waste their time with it in the future. Its no easier than using the software (the software is actually better) and I assume the 4.0 software will make use of Windows 7 libraries, so all your music will be in one place for the software to access anyways. If you think installing the Zune software is a hassle than you have larger problems to deal with.
I just installed the Zune 3.0 software last night to check it out (I don't currently own a Zune). Although it looks neat, I'm really unimpressed with its resource usage. It uses over 50% CPU most of the time when I'm just playing a song, even with the graphics settings set all the way down. Windows Media Player 12 uses about 2% in the same situation.
Unless the Zune 4.0 software has some serious optimizations, I'd rather use WMP or write my own program to sync my music instead of dealing with a hot laptop.
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  #394  
Old 08-19-2009, 09:36 PM
lossendae lossendae is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyaxel21 View Post
I was seriously considering buying a Zune but week after week, and announcement after announcement i lose my appeal for the device...
I was well aware that you wouldnt be able (or want to to use MS language) to catch up with Apple about the appstore and all the little things an Itouch/IPhone can do but still the design was right, the Tegra was very cool and unlike Sony's joke of a player with the X-1000, your prices are excellent.
Same here.

But i think that the MS AppStore can still be really surprising.

Quote:
But to hear all the little itches about codecs (why bother spreading the HD trademark if you don't even mkv seriously...), drag & drop impossible? you gotta be kidding, how could someone get lost or stuck by drag droping a file but not by having to install a software, pointing a directory, syncing the device, finding the menus...
They have the same approach than Apple since they want to target the same market.

The Apple approach is to not leave many choices for their devices. Which is btw one of the reason this website exist.

Quote:
And i don't get how you manage to justify some decisions by functions=time=money when a) Chinese release dozens of multi functions players every weeks. Sure the quality may no be the best and i'm sure there's some specificities due to Nvidia's chip but we've known about Zune for more than a year, you had time to make it happen.
If it's not in the Zune, it's because MS don't want to give this "user experience".

The only way to change things will be to allow 3rd party to use the zune software.

That's fun to see MS struggling while they really have some good ideas. Just today i've seen an old MS research project who introduced a 3D desktop just like the sun looking glass but 3 years before them (Yeah, 2000, hardware accelerated on Windows 2000).

They even implemented in the demo an expose like (2000 remember) and the ancestor of aero win+tab.
They never released it though, and now every ones is rambling about them copying others.

Could be similar with Zune, they just tested many options, but reduce the features as the project mature to control the user experience.

That's why :
- Zune will be usable only with the Zune desktop software.
- Will support video codecs but not containers
- Will not support plenty of audio codecs

We'll see in september.

I really wish that i'm wrong.
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  #395  
Old 08-20-2009, 07:22 AM
crazyaxel21 crazyaxel21 is offline
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What's the need to control the user experience? Let us create our experience with our needs and not make us buy a different player for every function.
They have already made a try with the first Zune to test the market and learn and get some experience, why not going all out, it's MS we're talking about, splash the cash and make it THE device to have in your pocket :/
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  #396  
Old 08-20-2009, 07:50 AM
Olley Olley is offline
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There are two kinds of consumers as it relates to pocket media players. I'm speaking in huge generalities. One kind is like us. We want choice, we customize if we can, we tinker and exploit the features of our devices. We're one percent or less of the people who buy mp3 players. It depresses me a little but of the 20 or so people I work with I'm the only one who knows what "gapless" and "crossfade" and "flash" and "codec" means. The majority of people don't even realize there is anything out there beyond MP3s. That same majority never buys new headphones for their ipod unless the old ones break. Then they usually buy new white ones from an Apple store. This is the market Apple and MS are targeting.
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  #397  
Old 08-20-2009, 10:51 AM
Dan12R Dan12R is offline
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Thanks for looking into the answer on .dvr-ms, Dave. It's been an issue that's been driving me crazy as I can't see the reason not to support it with anything recorded off an ATSC broadcast. If it's being put on a device with a screen resolution as low as the Zune or Zune HD (low in comparison to an HDTV, not in it's market) then it's not going to look any better than something recorded off an NTSC broadcast. And I doubt most people upset with this issue care about being able to play it back on their HDTV at full 720p because the main reason for something like this is portability and many probably already have a WME device like the Xbox 360. So why not have the software just downgrade the content to the HD's resolution?
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  #398  
Old 08-20-2009, 11:14 AM
Olley Olley is offline
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The tricky thing about the ZuneHD is that even though it won't display any better than 480 x 272, it can send higher resolution (up to 1280 x 720) video out through the dock connector-A/V dock. That might be the concern.
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  #399  
Old 08-20-2009, 11:39 AM
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Machiventa Machiventa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheeToS View Post
I just installed the Zune 3.0 software last night to check it out (I don't currently own a Zune). Although it looks neat, I'm really unimpressed with its resource usage. It uses over 50% CPU most of the time when I'm just playing a song, even with the graphics settings set all the way down. Windows Media Player 12 uses about 2% in the same situation.
Unless the Zune 4.0 software has some serious optimizations, I'd rather use WMP or write my own program to sync my music instead of dealing with a hot laptop.
100% agreed. Try typing something into the search bar and see what happens (not so much with cpu usage but with the software itself). And autoplaylist creation need more criteria IMO. Of course there could be tons of other additions that would be nice but I'm pleasantly content with it as my pc media player.
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  #400  
Old 08-20-2009, 11:42 AM
DaveMac-MS DaveMac-MS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olley View Post
There are two kinds of consumers as it relates to pocket media players. I'm speaking in huge generalities. One kind is like us. We want choice, we customize if we can, we tinker and exploit the features of our devices. We're one percent or less of the people who buy mp3 players. It depresses me a little but of the 20 or so people I work with I'm the only one who knows what "gapless" and "crossfade" and "flash" and "codec" means. The majority of people don't even realize there is anything out there beyond MP3s. That same majority never buys new headphones for their ipod unless the old ones break. Then they usually buy new white ones from an Apple store. This is the market Apple and MS are targeting.
Very good post from Olley. This is spot on - like any business, we carefully evaluated the market, made the decision it was better to win a smaller percentage of a much bigger market, than a larger percentage of a much smaller market - and away we went.

The problem with this conversation is, as Olley notes, that everyone in this forum falls into the "much smaller market" bucket, not the mass market that his work colleagues all fall into. So, I'm trying to defend our feature decisions to a group of folks who in some respects don't fall into the target market for the product.

The good news is that I think we're definitely getting to a point where we have advanced features, we have basic features, and we're increasing the breadth of potential customers with each new release. BUT... there are some fundamentals which we won't sacrifice - most of which are features or functionality to ensure a great user experience for the mass market. To the extent we can add additional advanced elements, we will.

As for the comment about codecs or the absence of them - I would just remind you that the product isn't "done forever" upon shipping. I don't think folks would argue that we have a pretty good track record of firmware updates that add features and do so downlevel to legacy hardware too. No comment or commitment on what's coming in the future, but just remember that we've added stuff via firmware updates in the past - and we don't plan on standing still with this device.

Cheers, Dave.
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