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  #221  
Old 07-29-2009, 03:37 AM
m_k m_k is offline
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PS: One more time, Sansa does NOT harvest my usage data! They CANNOT harvest it, since as far as their "relationship" to me goes, it ENDS once they sell me their product! Their players are viewed by my computer as nothing more than USB flash drives -- and the ONLY way for them to insinuate themselves into THAT "relationship" would be via the stealth insertion of a rootkit -- and a certain outfit named "Sony" found themselves in a whole lot of hot water when THEY "rooted" peoples machines via "stealth" rootware included on music CDs.

PPS: I hope you take the time to read the comments that follow that C|NET article -- there are a LOT of VERY irate people!

Folks as a rule do NOT enjoy having their privacy violated -- and, "fine-printing" it away from them, and then telling them something like "too bad, so sad, you should have objected BEFORE you found out about it, it was right there in the fine print buried 32,767 layers down, so, now we OWN you, so shut up and take it" will NOT placate them.

Don't worry about ME. I'm not going to start a class-action (like the one linked in the article). I'm too old for that, and have no real interest in enriching a few lawyers so that fifty million victims can get a coupon good for five cents off your next fifty dollar purchase. But I'll be shocked to my core if NO ONE is up to that sort of endeavor. And I'll be REALLY surprised if this does NOT waft its way into "the news" -- and I'll be even MORE surprised if there's ANY friendly reportage.

The Supreme Court has recognized a Constitutional RIGHT TO PRIVACY in this country. Those who violate it -- and then try to spin it via "the fine-print maneuver" -- are squaring off against a HUGE groundswell of opposition. The ONLY measure of success they can have will be due to the lack of people's awareness OF the practice.

Once that "stealth cloak" is removed... oh, boy. It'd be SO much simpler to simply be up-front with people, wouldn't it? If you WANT to snarf up their usage data, point it out BEFORE it's too late, rather than point them at The Fine Print AFTER THE FACT -- and then tell them "sorry, it's too late, we REFUSE to STOP harvesting you once you fall into the pit!"

Oh, sure, you'd get a LOT FEWER people "agreeing" to it. But, look at the bright side -- they WOULD be agreeing to it, whereas those, like me, who were "fine-printed" into it did NOT agree to it, and WOULD not have agreed to it.

Clearly, my mistake consisted of trusting Microsoft. Never in a million years would I have imagined they'd pull a too-cute-by-half stunt like this. It's the kind of low-down tricks SPAMMERS engage in -- defaulting to "opt-IN" and making opt-OUT incredibly difficult if not impossible.

I had thought much better of you than that. But, I guess this is a teachable moment for me. I ought to thank you for it, I suppose.

[edit: typos fixed]

Last edited by m_k; 07-29-2009 at 03:57 AM.
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  #222  
Old 07-29-2009, 04:42 AM
m_k m_k is offline
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Before I slip into unconsciousness one (hopefully!) final comment in this subtopic, in which m_k attempts to acquit himself vis-a-vis the inevitable accusations to come (that being the one that has come prior, an accusation that I am an obvious MS-hater, or words to that effect).

I am NOT a Microsoft-hater. I am simply a privacy-lover. I have spent more money with MS over the years than I can tally. My last act (prior to the latest Zune) was placing an order for four copies of Windows 7 upgrade. I do not "need" them -- I can continue running Win2K, WinXP, and Vista on the machines. I could even install some of my many legally obtained copies of everything from Win 3.0 to WinNT (pick a version, any version!), not to mention the copy of WinBOB... um, I mean "WinME" that MS gave me at the end of the tech beta. Funny thing, that, I never got around to installing that one. Go figure.

But, I ordered the W7 because I thought it'd be a good OS, based on everything I've read. But I'd be lying to you if I were to say that as of tonight I was NOT having twinges of worry over whether IT will "phone home" on an ongoing basis, with ex-post-facto comfortspeak about how I had a choice ("don't install it!") and how they "need" to track details on every file I create and save ("We need to report the file format protocols in case you save a file in Wordstar 3.0 format and a guy in the Okechobee Swamp who bought the rights to the format at a yard sale back in '89 is owed a royalty of $1/yr for every fifty thousand files written in it.") Or, "We NEED to track everything you do, in case you listen to a radio station that uses a .DLL in their IIS installation that contains a line of code based on cross-rights patent swap with [name withheld due to NDA]"

Or something equally silly. Because frankly I can't think of anything more silly -- more of a stretch of credulity -- more of a "oh, he'll believe ANYTHING -- and besides, it doesn't matter whether he believes it or not, we'll just do what we want and then blow him off with some lame 'explanation' and he can like it or lump it" -- excuse than I've heard tonight.

No, I am NOT a Microsoft-hater.

Fear and hate are entirely separate factors.

I don't intend to continue this. I've said really all there is to say, there's no point in rehashing it, and I don't want to allow myself to be baited into saying something untoward.

I *will* continue monitoring, however, in case ANYONE can come up with a suggestion on how I can block this ONGOING INVASION OF PRIVACY, since I really would NOT like to dump my Zunes.

I guess I could downgrade to an earlier firmware and kick in that Registry tweak that lets me do drag/drop to the device, but I'd be giving up some functionality (UNRELATED to ANYTHING that would be "needed" by ANY third party to access).

Ultimately, I'll either find a way to use it WITHOUT crippling it, or, I'll dump it, and stop telling people what a great player it is. The best friend in the world is no friend at all if he rifles through my papers while my back is turned, and then tells me I'm TSOL because when I said "Sure, come on in" I gave him permission to do so, and he's got a stack of fine-print his stable of lawyers worked up that "legally proves" it.

Last edited by m_k; 07-29-2009 at 05:18 AM.
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  #223  
Old 07-29-2009, 09:54 AM
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Cruleworld Cruleworld is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m_k View Post
PS: One more time, Sansa does NOT harvest my usage data! They CANNOT harvest it, since as far as their "relationship" to me goes, it ENDS once they sell me their product! Their players are viewed by my computer as nothing more than USB flash drives -- and the ONLY way for them to insinuate themselves into THAT "relationship" would be via the stealth insertion of a rootkit -- and a certain outfit named "Sony" found themselves in a whole lot of hot water when THEY "rooted" peoples machines via "stealth" rootware included on music CDs.
So I know this is a ask Dave thread, but sense He is a Zune guy and not a sansa guy I will respond to this...

The SanDisk Sansa works in a way that SanDisk themselves does no tracking. However, if you subscribe to a service like Rhadsody then that service will be tracking your habits. So what microsoft does with the DRM content is normal.

However, as dave states many times to not be tracked with the DRM-Free stuff just don't sign in! It's plain simple and easy to do. Sense you don't use the store anyway (per your statement of all your music being from CDs) just log out if you don't want to be tracked!

What is the point of staying logged in if you don't want info collected anyway and your not buying from the store?

Sorry if anyone feels attacked by the above statements, I'm just trying to figure things out.
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  #224  
Old 07-29-2009, 10:46 AM
DaveMac-MS DaveMac-MS is offline
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Originally Posted by m_k View Post
Frankly I don't give a rat's patoo what you do with "subscription" stuff -- so long as whatever you and THOSE WHO SUBSCRIBE are mutually amenable to it.

But, what's happening to ME (and I suspect millions LIKE me) is that stuff with NO "subscription" nexus IS being harvested -- and, I'm given an ex-post-facto "Simon Says" option to avoid it, but ONLY if I avoid it by FIRST reading the fine print hidden away in a chokepile of legalese.
Okay - first of all, let me ask. Do you have a Zune Pass subscription? I think the answer is no. Either way, do you have a Zune Tag or zune account of any kind? If not, then I don't think any data is being sent back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_k View Post
PS: One more time, Sansa does NOT harvest my usage data! They CANNOT harvest it, since as far as their "relationship" to me goes, it ENDS once they sell me their product!
The "relationship" isn't in question here - and since I don't know which particular Sansa product you have I can't state with 100% confidence, but... ANY product which supports subscription (and SanDisk do make Sansa products that work with Rhapsody/Napster) WILL have to send back play counts to the service. There is no other way for subscription to work. It isn't "personal" data in the sense that nobody is able to identify you by the content you've listened to. It's just an "odometer" if you like of content consumed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_k View Post
The Supreme Court has recognized a Constitutional RIGHT TO PRIVACY in this country. Those who violate it -- and then try to spin it via "the fine-print maneuver" -- are squaring off against a HUGE groundswell of opposition. The ONLY measure of success they can have will be due to the lack of people's awareness OF the practice.
This is true - but I truly believe there is no privacy being violated here. If I had to think of an analogy, I'd say this is like your cable TV box. Everytime you watch a TV show, a "watch count" is incremented back at the cable provider's HQ. At the end of the month, they bubble up this info and can see which shows were watched most - like the old Nielsen ratings.

The cable provider is not publishing personal information to the public, they're not changing their direct billing to you based on what you're watching. They're not passing on to the TV networks your personal information and viewing preferences. But they are taking all this anonymous data and bubbling it up to establish viewing trends across a geography. As a consumer I'm fine with that, it seems implied to me, and if I really, really had a problem with it I'd just watch tv direct, without a cable box.

IANAL, but I think that's a close analogy. You can "watch tv without a cable box" by not logging into, or even cancelling your Zune tag account.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_k View Post
Clearly, my mistake consisted of trusting Microsoft. Never in a million years would I have imagined they'd pull a too-cute-by-half stunt like this. It's the kind of low-down tricks SPAMMERS engage in -- defaulting to "opt-IN" and making opt-OUT incredibly difficult if not impossible.
m_k - I really don't know what to tell you. I CAN say that there are so many checks and balances on the usage and handling of PII at Microsoft that I feel with 100% confidence that what we're talking about is anonymous usage data such as play counts with absolutely no PII. That means that by any government or legal definition no privacy is being jeopardized. However, there is an out for you if you feel otherwise, and since you appear to be rather passionate about this - I encourage you to take that out.

I'm not trivializing your concern - remember I have an account too, as do all the people who work on Zune (so we're subject to the same usage data being logged) - but given the level of your suspicion I think I can only recommend that you cancel your Zune tag.

Cheers, Dave.
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  #225  
Old 07-29-2009, 02:11 PM
m_k m_k is offline
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OK, I said I was not going to keep rehashing things, but it would be rude for me to ignore polite questions posed to me, so, with no further ado...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruleworld View Post
So I know this is a ask Dave thread, but sense He is a Zune guy and not a sansa guy I will respond to this...

The SanDisk Sansa works in a way that SanDisk themselves does no tracking. However, if you subscribe to a service like Rhadsody then that service will be tracking your habits. So what microsoft does with the DRM content is normal.
OK, first off, I can guarantee you that Sansa does NOT track my usage -- that is, unless they've rooted my machine and are now privy to raw USB flash drive data. And since I cannot believe that to be the case, I don't see any WAY for them to track my usage. As to which Sansas I have, I cannot tell you, as I've literally lost track. Suffice it to say a variety of players of the following types: c200 series (V1), e200 series (V1, V2), Clip (V1, V2), View, Express. You will note I do NOT have any "R" (Rhapsody) e200 series, however, the Clip, and I believe the V2-type e200 players have the "R" bits built into their firmware.

I do NOT avail myself of ANY subscription features, however. Couldn't even if I wanted to, since I live in a region where it is not possible to get anything other than dialup modem access.


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Originally Posted by Cruleworld View Post
However, as dave states many times to not be tracked with the DRM-Free stuff just don't sign in! It's plain simple and easy to do. Sense you don't use the store anyway (per your statement of all your music being from CDs) just log out if you don't want to be tracked!

What is the point of staying logged in if you don't want info collected anyway and your not buying from the store?

Sorry if anyone feels attacked by the above statements, I'm just trying to figure things out.
If it were that simple, I'd surely have done so! In fact, I tried it, to no avail -- my data remains on Microsoft's server, verified by the fact that it displays it to me -- confirming that no only is it being stored, but, that it IS linked to my account, all protestation to the contrary nothwithstanding.

The fine print in question makes it crystal clear that falling into this rabbit-hole is a one-way trip -- once they begin tracking and harvesting usage data, they WILL NOT STOP, even if I *do* try to sever the association between the device and the account. They say this, and the facts bear it out.

Telling me that all I have to do is not sign in, is tantamount to telling me that if I am bothered by prowlers in my house in the wee hours of the night, all I really need to do is pull the covers over my head and stop looking at them, rather than continuing to whine about "people nosing about my private residence."

Last edited by m_k; 07-29-2009 at 03:13 PM.
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  #226  
Old 07-29-2009, 02:52 PM
m_k m_k is offline
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Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS View Post
Okay - first of all, let me ask. Do you have a Zune Pass subscription? I think the answer is no. Either way, do you have a Zune Tag or zune account of any kind? If not, then I don't think any data is being sent back.
Good Lord, pinch me, wake me up!

As I have repeatedly pointed out, 1) I do NOT have any content subscriptions, I do NOT have any DRM'd content, and it is CLEAR that my data IS being harvested, because IT IS ON YOUR SERVERS!

The fact that it IS on the servers is all the proof necessary to demonstrate that it HAS in fact been harvested!

And, by the same token, I have explained that I *do* have an account on the Zune forum -- otherwise, how on Earth could I be complaining about my harvested data being LINKED to my account?????

Either you are not reading what I have been saying, or, you are trying to wear me down by repeatedly hammering me with the same talking points and consistently disregarding my replies.

If that's the case, I must say it IS working.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS View Post
The "relationship" isn't in question here - and since I don't know which particular Sansa product you have I can't state with 100% confidence, but... ANY product which supports subscription (and SanDisk do make Sansa products that work with Rhapsody/Napster) WILL have to send back play counts to the service. There is no other way for subscription to work. It isn't "personal" data in the sense that nobody is able to identify you by the content you've listened to. It's just an "odometer" if you like of content consumed.
As I have stated, I have multiple Sansa devices, some of which DO have Rhapsody support -- but, since I do not USE that feature, my PRIVATE data is NOT harvested. I know this as a FACT.

And the repeated mantra that this is NOT "personal" data, that it is "anonymous" -- is growing quite tiresome, as it is CLEARLY *personal* data (ask any librarian, or ACLU staffer!) -- and, it is CLEARLY *not* "anonymous" since it is CLEARLY linked to MY account.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS View Post
This is true - but I truly believe there is no privacy being violated here. If I had to think of an analogy, I'd say this is like your cable TV box. Everytime you watch a TV show, a "watch count" is incremented back at the cable provider's HQ. At the end of the month, they bubble up this info and can see which shows were watched most - like the old Nielsen ratings.
I don't know what it's like in your country, but in THIS country, the Nielson ratings are NOT anything that the company is "entitled" to obtain WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF THE VIEWERS. No one becomes a "Neilsen family" without KNOWING they're becoming one. It requires the express PERMISSION -- not some "you didn't drill down umpteen layers into the legalese to find out how to NOT opt-in, and therefore we own your data and there is NO WAY for you to make us STOP harvesting your usage habits."



Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS View Post
The cable provider is not publishing personal information to the public, they're not changing their direct billing to you based on what you're watching. They're not passing on to the TV networks your personal information and viewing preferences.
So what? Big deal. We're not TALKING about a cable company (as I've said, I don't HAVE cable anyway, living way out in the boonies where it's not available), and regardless, it doesn't MATTER if they don't share it with anyone else -- it matters that THEY have it.

What unmitigated arrogance to think that it's OK for ONE company to harvest my PERSONAL data, so long as they keep it to themselves!

Or rather, I should say "or TRY to keep it to themselves" -- since the history is replete with numerous instances of exactly this sort of "trust us, it's private and we won't share it" data LEAKING out.

In some cases, large corporations have handed over the goods because the government ASKED for it, without ANY due process. A few years ago the Bush regime wanted to build a massive database of PERSONAL information, so, they asked phone companies and Internet search providers to hand over PRIVATE information.

By and large, these companies complied -- their written privacy policies notwithstanding.

In other examples, "private" stuff seems to ooze out the pores. There is the famous AOL "leak" in which massive quantitits of "anonymous" search query data was put online -- and then pulled OFFline when they realized what had happened -- but NOT before the material was archived by third parties, and put into a queryable database.

And this "anonymous" data was loaded with enough PERSONALLY IDENTIFIABLE information to allow many of the items to be liked up to real persons.

And then there's Microsoft. I would be a fool were I to think that Microsoft is any LESS careful about their OWN "private" data -- yet, a while back, the Windows SOURCE CODE leaked out and was widely distributed.

Hardly a month goes by in which we do NOT see reports in the news about LARGE corporations suffering breaches in which HUGE amounts of PERSONAL customer data is lost to various perps.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS View Post
But they are taking all this anonymous data and bubbling it up to establish viewing trends across a geography. As a consumer I'm fine with that, it seems implied to me, and if I really, really had a problem with it I'd just watch tv direct, without a cable box.

IANAL, but I think that's a close analogy. You can "watch tv without a cable box" by not logging into, or even cancelling your Zune tag account.
Again with the "anonymous" talking points, AFTER it has been demonstrated that the harvested data in question is NOT anonymous.

There's no need for a cable TV analogy, since we're talking about what Microsoft is doing -- and, WHAT they are doing is not up for wild guessing, since they both admit that they do it AND *confirm* that they do it (by displaying the harvested data -- on their website -- in association with my account).


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS View Post
m_k - I really don't know what to tell you. I CAN say that there are so many checks and balances on the usage and handling
Just as there were with the Windows source code?

Just as there are with the many credit card processors, banks, and other financial institutions who regularly "leak" personal information? Or are we to believe that these FEDERALLY REGULATED FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS are *less* careful with personal *financial* records than *Microsoft* is with stuff they repeatedly (and wrongly) assert to be "anonymous"?


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS View Post
of PII at Microsoft that I feel with 100% confidence that what we're talking about is anonymous usage data such as play counts with absolutely no PII. That means that by any government or legal definition no privacy is being jeopardized. However, there is an out for you if you feel otherwise, and since you appear to be rather passionate about this - I encourage you to take that out.
You can repeat that incorrect assertion as many times as you please, but as long as MY information, harvested WITHOUT my explicit permission, IS served up in association with MY account, it is crystal clear that Microsoft IS associating MY information with MY account.

This is not rocket science, and the more you stick to the script, the worse it makes the narrative read.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS View Post
I'm not trivializing your concern - remember I have an account too, as do all the people who work on Zune (so we're subject to the same usage data being logged) - but given the level of your suspicion I think I can only recommend that you cancel your Zune tag.

Cheers, Dave.
Look, Dave -- I really have no interest in the privacy rights that YOU have to trade off as a condition of employment, any more than I care about the privacy rights that DRM content subscribers willingly compromise as a condition of rental of DRM'd content.

I am NOT a Microsoft employee, and I am NOT a DRM content subscriber -- and I did NOT willingly OPT-IN to having my private usage data harvested by ANYONE.

The fact that you do not willingly/knowingly "share" it with any third parties is NOT the issue, not anymore than a shoplifter can use as an affirmative defense the claim that he is NOT going to be reselling anything that he pockets while in the store.

Again, this is NOT rocket science, and the ongoing efforts to spin the discussion AWAY from the verified FACTS does not speak well for the company.

One last item -- that "fine print" in question, which I eventually did find -- which you then provided the citation for -- I find it rather comical that the ONLY way I was ABLE to find it was while searching for something ELSE via Google (another data-hungry company).

The "privacy" links from WITHIN the Zune program did NOT show me anything besides a pile of "general" Microsoft boilerplate. If there IS an actual link to that clause from the Zune program it's nothing I have been able to find, and that's WITH my having actively LOOKED for pertinent information.

It is obvious that the world-class "gotcha" clause is DEEPLY squirreled away in a place where most people will NOT find it -- and it seems that MOST people have NOT found it! So I guess that's some kind of "success" eh?

Unfortunately, the greater the privacy implications of a clause, the more important it is to point it out to the customer. This is something that's been hammered out SO many times over the years as to not really need explanation. To take something THIS major, and then default it to "I accept" -- when clearly MOST people will not have any idea that they are "agreeing" to the harvesting -- is just not cool at all.

And it is even MORE egregious to then make it a one-way ratchet -- once in, ALWAYS in, with NO way to STOP the harvesting (making me wonder why you continue harping on why I should simply cancel my account, since that will NOT stop the harvesting seem rather amusing and perplexing).
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  #227  
Old 07-29-2009, 03:37 PM
m_k m_k is offline
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Bottom line, I'm outta here, done with this debate. It's to the point that it's giving me angina and tachycardia, and I'll be damned if I let y'all "win by attrittion.

Looks like I'll either be selling my Zunes, or rolling back the firmware and using them in cripple-mode but WITH the ability to bypass that horse-choker of a Zune.exe monstrosity.

Or, taking 'em out back, setting 'em on a stump, stepping back ten paces, and putting a single 230 grain slug through the both of 'em. (Haven't found any "terms and conditions" that forbid me to do THAT to "my" property -- at least not YET, at least!

So long, see ya on the Sansa threads, where the vendor may not be there with a smile, but at least isn't there with a Hoover either.
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  #228  
Old 07-29-2009, 08:02 PM
m_k m_k is offline
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As a public service, I'm stopping by here one more time with some news that will once and for all put a stop to ALL of the assinine "just log off, duh" suggestions.

I created a dummy "music" file (with a title Microsoft would NOT enjoy), and synched it to my new Zune 80, which has NEVER been associated to/linked with ANY account -- using my zune.exe program which has been in "logged off" mode since last night. I then played the "song" and synched again.

I then went to Microsoft's web server: http://social.zune.net/profile/home.aspx

Well what do you know about that! There was the "song" that I had just played.

It was snarfed up by Microsoft, from a Zune device that had NEVER been linked to any account, using a zune.exe program that was NOT logged in.

Looks like the "privacy" page was telling the truth when it said that ALL data would be harvested no matter WHAT you did, once you've fallen into the rabbit hole.

Nice work, guys. Cute, real cute.

You "value" my privacy, LMAO! Good one!
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  #229  
Old 07-30-2009, 10:14 AM
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Oh, by the way -- I finally DID manage to get that pig of a program into the proverbial hammerlock, and it finally cried uncle.

That's right -- NEITHER of my Zunes is "associated" with my account any longer! NONE of my ongoing usage is reported via my account.

No, I won't bore you with the details as to how I did that. No reason to do so anyway, since YOU wouldn't want to disassociate YOUR Zunes from your accounts. Wouldn't want people to think your *paranoid* after all.
Are you serious? You write us a novel's worth of content, and the one thing you don't share is the most useful part? Please reconsider that, at least...I, for one, am interested in how you severed ties with the usage-reporting mechanism.
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  #230  
Old 07-30-2009, 12:06 PM
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Are you serious? You write us a novel's worth of content, and the one thing you don't share is the most useful part? Please reconsider that, at least...I, for one, am interested in how you severed ties with the usage-reporting mechanism.
Same here, as I'd love to be able to disassociate my Zune w/my acct as well.
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  #231  
Old 07-30-2009, 08:23 PM
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Wow m k for someone who's not paranoid YOU sure seem to be very WARY. Thanks again DaveMac-MS for answering our user questions

m k if you have questions for DaveMac-MS then that's fine, as for your 3 page dissertations that delve into the off topic territory that's just about enough. I understand you have a problem with these issues and if you would like to start a thread of your own then so be it. We have a MS employee who is gracious enough to answer our questions, if you choose to abuse that then your comments will be removed.

Let's get back on topic
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Last edited by Cruleworld; 07-30-2009 at 11:19 PM.
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  #232  
Old 07-31-2009, 12:21 AM
m_k m_k is offline
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Well.... since you're already deleting my replies (while, curiously, leaving in place the many personal attacks against me -- selective TOS enforcement, gotta luv it), I won't bother wasting my time on this topic any further.

Oh, don't worry -- I HAVE of course archived everything. I'd hate to have to go re-typing things for the nice man from Cnet (and.... no, I won't spoil the surprise).

For y'all folks who'd like to know how to un-trap YOUR zunes, keep your eyes peeled on Cnet etc.

G'day, mite.
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  #233  
Old 07-31-2009, 04:49 AM
DaveMac-MS DaveMac-MS is offline
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I then went to Microsoft's web server: http://social.zune.net/profile/home.aspx

Well what do you know about that! There was the "song" that I had just played.

It was snarfed up by Microsoft, from a Zune device that had NEVER been linked to any account, using a zune.exe program that was NOT logged in.
So here's where I'm confused. And really, m_k - I'm trying to work with you here. Frankly, I think you have no interest in seeing a point of view other than your own at this point, but for the benefit of intelligent debate, I have a question.

When I go to this link that you call "Microsoft's web server" - the first thing it asks me to do is log in. You told me you don't have a Zune Pass account, a Zune tag and you weren't logged in to any account on your PC. I think the point you're trying to make is that Microsoft tracks usage counts even when you think we don't. From my perspective, I'm trying to replicate what you're doing - and I can't, the website asks me to log in.

So - and I ask this with great respect - can you PM me with the steps you took to see your dummy song on a zune.net website without logging in? That's a serious bug if indeed that is possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_k View Post
G'day, mite.
Nice. For what it's worth - with all this discussion of privacy in "my country" versus "your country" - I don't believe I give up any privacy rights due to my employer, I'm not obligated to use my own company's products, and since I live, work and pay taxes in the US (as a permanent resident) - I consider my privacy rights to be the same as yours.

I am curious though - with no access to broadband, and all this talk of living in the boonies - where do you actually live?

Cheers, Dave.
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  #234  
Old 07-31-2009, 07:58 AM
daglesj daglesj is offline
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A change of tack - Analysts say MS should drop the Zune -

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/Microsof...news-4344.html

Interesting range of comments.

Full article here -

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/mic...gle-2009-07-29
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  #235  
Old 07-31-2009, 08:14 AM
komugi komugi is offline
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Curious, when Zune HD, there will be unicode support, but will the unicode support firmware trickle down to the Zune 80/120 or will it only be Zune HD exclusive?
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  #236  
Old 07-31-2009, 08:55 AM
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The DarkSide The DarkSide is offline
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All updates have hit all models (provided the hardware can handle it). The 1 real exception is for h.264 on the Zune 30, it just cant decode the codec. Otherwise, everybody is covered in one fashion or another.
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  #237  
Old 07-31-2009, 09:33 AM
komugi komugi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The DarkSide View Post
All updates have hit all models (provided the hardware can handle it). The 1 real exception is for h.264 on the Zune 30, it just cant decode the codec. Otherwise, everybody is covered in one fashion or another.
Nice, I'm not a fan of touch screen based players, so I'll stick it out with my 80GB that I just got. Glad to know that it'll have unicode support.
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  #238  
Old 07-31-2009, 01:49 PM
zergslayer69 zergslayer69 is offline
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*poke* hey m_k, may as well explain to Dave how you managed to get MS to track your info so he can look into it. If Dave can replicate your problem, perhaps he can bring it up to MS....(and hopefully not give MS some ideas to work around it to still collect your info).
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  #239  
Old 07-31-2009, 04:58 PM
m_k m_k is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zergslayer69 View Post
*poke* hey m_k, may as well explain to Dave how you managed to get MS to track your info so he can look into it. If Dave can replicate your problem, perhaps he can bring it up to MS....(and hopefully not give MS some ideas to work around it to still collect your info).
Sorry, no can do.

I've been told in no uncertain terms that I am to shut up on the topic, and any further contributions I make in that vein will be deleted. Material I spent considerable time and effort to contribute has already been deleted.

It's their site, and they make the rules -- and they decide who they'll enforce them against (or, not, as the case may be, given the various personal attacks I've received which are apparently overlooked by managment).

I have no interest in sticking around where I'm not welcome, and I don't do the PM thing, so let's not even think about going down that road.

If management wants to post something granting me permission to reply to Dave's questions, I'll gladly do so. I can definitely tell him how to duplicate the problem -- but I am not going to waste my time -- or elevate my blood pressure -- working up a contribution only to see it deleted.

When you get into your sixties, and have a serious coronary problem, you have more things to worry about than this crap. I have no interest in being found dead, slumped over my keyboard, with this thread on screen. MY life is too short for that kind of stuff.
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  #240  
Old 07-31-2009, 05:48 PM
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epithetless epithetless is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m_k View Post
For y'all folks who'd like to know how to un-trap YOUR zunes, keep your eyes peeled on Cnet etc.
Looking forward to seeing this.
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