Ask Dave (A Microsoft Employee)

[The DarkSide]

Originally Posted by Olley

Dave,
I'm assuming you've noticed the story about the Chinese worker who allegedly committed suicide after losing an iPhone prototype he was responsible for. Just out of curiousity, what is the "penalty" for losing your ZuneHD? How often are you checked to make sure you still have it?

Flogging to death w/a wet noodle sounds like a plan,.....any other suggestions?

[CrowdAds]

[DaveMac-MS]

Originally Posted by clubdirthill

Did you have anything to do with the official Zune 2 leather cases? Because I love mine.

Those cases were made by our internal 1st party accessories team. I did not do any bizdev work to support those, although I've worked on a lot of their products since. I will pass on your feedback to those fellas though.

Originally Posted by clubdirthill

Also, have you talked the the DLNA folks about DLNA in Zune? (You probably can't talk about this.) I know Windows 7 has it, and it would be cool if Zune did as well. It would certainly help alleviate concerns about storage space.

All I can say is that I'm a big fan of DLNA and have evangelized the benefits of DLNA far and wide. This stems from the fact that UPnP was one of the first standards groups I represented Microsoft on when I joined the company.

Originally Posted by copeys

But dave, nice podcast . Well done mate

Thanks much! Appreciate the comments.

Originally Posted by UserC

That is the lyrics feature, could you give us a hint of whether this feature is implemented or may be implemented some time after the release of the ZuneHD?!

Thanks for writing UserC - lyrics are always tough because of the licensing implications - not just the fact that it is an extra component to license, but that extra component must be factored in across all territories for which content is licensed. That's why you don't see it that often.

No comment on what we're doing there - having said what I just said, we do license considerably more components given our Zune social, sharing features, subscription, etc... but unfortunately I can't confirm or deny anything specific around that feature. Sorry!

Originally Posted by Olley

I'm assuming you've noticed the story about the Chinese worker who allegedly committed suicide after losing an iPhone prototype he was responsible for. Just out of curiousity, what is the "penalty" for losing your ZuneHD? How often are you checked to make sure you still have it?

So we should underscore the "allegedly" in your question. We should also draw attention to the fact that the person in question was an employee of a contracted organization by Apple, not Apple themselves. In my case, I don't know of anyone that has ever "lost" an unreleased device - although it might have happened. While nobody "checks" to see if I still have my device, senior management would expect that if you lose it or have it stolen, you report it so immediately.

I don't plan to lose mine. I still have all my prototype devices right back to Zune 30.

Cheers, Dave.

[UserC]

Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS

Thanks for writing UserC - lyrics are always tough because of the licensing implications - not just the fact that it is an extra component to license, but that extra component must be factored in across all territories for which content is licensed. That's why you don't see it that often.

No comment on what we're doing there - having said what I just said, we do license considerably more components given our Zune social, sharing features, subscription, etc... but unfortunately I can't confirm or deny anything specific around that feature. Sorry!

Well, I appreciate you investing your time to reply anyways!
Firstly I'm just wondering why the quote of my post ends like this:
"ZuneHD?!"
I'm talking about the exclamation mark, I did not write it lol

Secondly, what did you mean by "license"?
I'm not that familiar with all of the licensing involved with the shipping of a new product so please deal with my possibly foolish question.
Did you mean that you need to buy a license just to have include such a feature in the ZuneHD?
Or were you talking about licensing lyrics from music artists/companies?

Again, thanks for your time and effort!

[DaveMac-MS]

Originally Posted by UserC

Firstly I'm just wondering why the quote of my post ends like this: "ZuneHD?!"
I'm talking about the exclamation mark, I did not write it lol

Hmm, not sure - sorry about the misquote!

Originally Posted by UserC

Secondly, what did you mean by "license"?

I meant content license - there is nothing we'd need to license for the hardware. When you're licensing content to go in the Zune Marketplace, we have to negotiate the subscription terms, the sharing terms, album art terms, referral terms (ie: the Social), etc... and lyrics would be another one of those - although from what I understand, lyrics adds a whole new level of complexity as the publishers are especially protective/concerned about monetization of lyrics.

Cheers, Dave.

[UserC]

Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS

Hmm, not sure - sorry about the misquote!

You are forgiven!

Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS

I meant content license - there is nothing we'd need to license for the hardware. When you're licensing content to go in the Zune Marketplace, we have to negotiate the subscription terms, the sharing terms, album art terms, referral terms (ie: the Social), etc... and lyrics would be another one of those - although from what I understand, lyrics adds a whole new level of complexity as the publishers are especially protective/concerned about monetization of lyrics.

Cheers, Dave.

Well, in that case, there's always the option of giving the publishers the ability to just sell their lyrics with the song for a little bit extra money.
If there will be such a feature, there will probably be many free ways to automatically download lyrics for songs, just like there are for ITunes.
And if so, many people will use it. So the ZuneHD team could just add the lyrics feature to give the users the option to use it in any way they want. It will be even better if you could negotiate with the publishers to publish their lyrics. But if not, a lyrics feature will only add anyways!
Personally, I really enjoy having the lyrics of the song right next to me, and I believe you'd agree!
Hopefully the ZuneHD will have it!

Thanks for listening/reading!
And sorry for - perhaps - babbling about this subject for too long!

[DaveMac-MS]

Don't apologize - everyone is welcome to ask their questions!

Ya, it isn't so much a problem about money, but more about permission and whether the publishers/content owners want their lyrics out there in such a fashion. You'd think this would simply be a matter of negotiating a license and adding value to the content people are already buying - or letting this be the reason people buy content. Unfortunately it is much more complex and difficult () than that...

Cheers, Dave.

[UserC]

Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS

Don't apologize - everyone is welcome to ask their questions!

Ya, it isn't so much a problem about money, but more about permission and whether the publishers/content owners want their lyrics out there in such a fashion. You'd think this would simply be a matter of negotiating a license and adding value to the content people are already buying - or letting this be the reason people buy content. Unfortunately it is much more complex and difficult () than that...

Cheers, Dave.

I see, well Apple's Ipod had a lyrics feature long before they started actually selling lyrics (I may be wrong but I think this is right).
Even if the Zune Software will not be able to sell lyrics, I still believe the ZuneHD should support it for future use, or for those who bought/got lyrics in another way!

[DaveMac-MS]

Hmm, didn't know that iPod's supported lyrics. How does it work - they just look for a *.lyc file?

Cheers, Dave.

[Cruleworld]

Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS

Hmm, didn't know that iPod's supported lyrics. How does it work - they just look for a *.lyc file?

Cheers, Dave.

Yes they support lyrics... I think it's in the ID3 tags.

[The DarkSide]

Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS

Hmm, didn't know that iPod's supported lyrics. How does it work - they just look for a *.lyc file?

Cheers, Dave.

Originally Posted by Cruleworld

Yes they support lyrics... I think it's in the ID3 tags.

My son has an iPod and all he does is edit the tags in iTunes. A quick copy&paste and he's all done. Really cool feature, MS should check it out.

[Ricardo Dawkins]

Hmm, didn't know that iPod's supported lyrics. How does it work - they just look for a *.lyc file?
.

Will Zune support lyrics in 2011 ?

Will Zune support on the go playlists, video playlists, video scaling options, Divx/AVI, Fm recording, better games for Tegra and applications before 2011? (all options sans one available on iPod and many other devices)

Will XNA for Zune stop rebooting my device after I finish a game before 2011 ?

Looks like the Zen Zii will have all these option way before 2011.

[Xiamhighx]

Originally Posted by Ricardo Dawkins

Will Zune support lyrics in 2011 ?

Will Zune support on the go playlists, video playlists, video scaling options, Divx/AVI, Fm recording, better games for Tegra and applications before 2011? (all options sans one available on iPod and many other devices)

Will XNA for Zune stop rebooting my device after I finish a game before 2011 ?

Looks like the Zen Zii will have all these option way before 2011.

If your crystal ball says so Ricardo, then go ahead and buy it .

[m_k]

From the "I Suddenly Feel Violated" department...

I recently purchased my second Zune -- an 80 GB model -- and, while trying to integrate it with my 30 GB model (ah, fun, fun, fun... a pity there is so little video format overlap between the two -- kind of reminds me of the great leap from VB6 to "VB"-dot-net), I happened to be perusing the Zune forums, and discovered that my PRIVATE usage data (tracks and podcasts I've listened to, how many times, etc.) had been harvested by Microsoft without my explicit permission.

After a LOT of web searching, I discovered this little gem buried in the fine print: "This information will be sent to Microsoft whenever you use Zune software that is associated with a Zune account and you have an active Internet connection, and it cannot be disabled after you have associated your Zune software or device with your Zune account. If you have a Zune device, your Zune device usage history will transfer to Microsoft as described above whenever you sync your device with an Internet-enabled computer or you connect to a wireless hotspot." [emphasis added]

In the words of Maynard G. Krebbs, like, wow, man...

Suddenly I think I realize a reason for NOT selling these things in the European market (namely, the STRONG laws that PROHIBIT much of the kind of PERSONAL data-mining that WE have become subject to in THIS country).

It's bad enough that they do it in the first place. It's worse yet that "opt-in" is the DEFAULT setting. It's even WORSE that this fact is hidden away in the fine print.

And it is beyond comprehension that it CANNOT BE DEACTIVATED after we are tricked into accepting it.

Good grief.

So, my question: Is there ANY way to get MY PRIVATE DATA *back* in MY hands ONLY, and NOT being harvested by Microsoft? I mean, short of discarding my Zune players.

Can I uninstall the Zune software, format my players, and then re-install the software, this time NOT associating it with any online identity? Will THAT protect my privacy? Or, is Microsoft being tres cute by querying the device's MAC and then checking if it's already in the Microsoft database, and then upon finding that it had once been thusly associated, PERSIST in the data-harvesting behavior?

And before ANYONE asks "Do you have anything to hide?" I will simply ask "Do YOU wear pants? Do you keep the fly closed? Do you close the door when you go to the bathroom? Do you have a password for your various accounts? If the answer is YES to any of these questions (or any of the infinite list of comparable questions) then I'd ask YOU the same question -- what do YOU "have to hide"?

The fact is, I value my privacy. Period. I have had an unlisted phone number for longer than most Zune users have been alive. I do not contribute letters to the local newspaper (after being an active contributor in the community I lived in prior to relocating here) because they have a policy of requiring -- and PRINTING -- the home address of every letter-writer (yet, for some odd reason, are very secretive about their OWN private data).

And for that matter, MICROSOFT is a very private entity too! There are oodles of bits of stuff THEY will NOT let out. I have signed many an NDA with MSFT over the years -- and they gradually got longer and longer, until at the last encounter were almost comically wordy piles of legalese, existing for the sole purpose of ensuring that Microsoft's privacy remained under their control. ("What do they have to hide?"

Anyone have any suggestions on how I can keep my Zunes AND my privacy?

Spare me the flames and personal attacks, please. If I want abuse, I'll to to an Ipod venue and start posting "Windows RULEZ!"

[Xiamhighx]

Originally Posted by m_k

Spare me the flames and personal attacks, please. If I want abuse, I'll to to an Ipod venue and start posting "Windows RULEZ!"

I don't know a way to disable it, but the main reason they have your listening habits on hand is to enhance music discovery features for other listeners.

[m_k]

Originally Posted by Xiamhighx

I don't know a way to disable it, but the main reason they have your listening habits on hand is to enhance music discovery features for other listeners.

That does not make any sense. If that was the case, then why do the let me BLOCK "other listeners" from accessing it, but NOT allow me to block THEM from harvesting it?

Seems to me that their reason for doing it is because THEY benefit from it. In fact, I can't think of any other reason for a corporation to do ANYTHING (within the constraints of the law), because of responsibility to provide value to shareholders.

Personally I don't see how it does provide any great value to shareholders, due to the fact that it's clearly the kind of thing that people would tend to NOT voluntarily opt-in for (otherwise there'd be obvious notice of the fact, along with an UN-checked option box at signup time, just as responsible marketers do with email advertising lists).

The fact that someone at MSFT decided to make it a "stealth" option -- buried in the fine print -- with not only an "opt-IN" default condition, but NO way to opt-OUT -- tells me that THEY don't seem all that confident that people would gladly line up for the honor of having THEIR personal lives harvested by a corporation.

I really don't want to have to dump these things (particularly after dumping a coupla hundred bucks into 'em), but I am NOT willing to go through life with a Redmond Microscope permanently mounted on the wall looking over my shoulder.

Edited to add that even if that IS their motive, I am not willing to trade off MY privacy to "enhance the pleasure" (or whatever) of a group of strangers.

It is no one's business what music I listen to -- what podcasts I listen to -- or how often I listen to them.

The fact that this sort of thing regularly lands in court (in the case of book store, library, and video rental habits of individuals being KEPT private by libraries) tells me that someone was possibly not thinking very many jumps ahead when he crafted that boneheaded policy.

We live in an age where we are strangled by bureaucratese, smothered in find print, buried in voluminous legalese that exists solely for the purpose of foisting on us that which we would NOT willingly accept if given the opportunity to object. For example look at the current scandal in Washingon, where those charged with crafting laws are in the process of REFUSING to even READ the bills that weigh many pounds, full of all sorts of "gotcha" fine print, before VOTING for them.

Does Apple, Inc. also insist on harvesting THEIR users data? I KNOW that Sansa does NOT.

I can guarantee you that if I found out that a bookstore was reporting my purchase history to others -- they would quickly discover that their data collection bandwidth requirements had fallen to zero bytes per eternity insofar as my account was concerned. Likewise with any entity.

I have walked out of a doctor's office after waiting close to a month for a specialist appointment and driving halfway across the state, because their smock-drone insisted on my giving her my Social Security number "our computer needs it" (as a former programmer and author, I find it rather irritating to have untrained clerks lecture me on data processing).

I will generally offer a compromise to folks who make that request, i.e., "I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours." I do this because I find it very amusing to watch them wax indignant over the fact that it's none of MY business what THEIR number is. Yeah, how 'bout that. LOL!

It's ironic that the entities that seem the MOST invasive, the MOST demanding of OUR private data, are the MOST SECRETIVE of their OWN data.

Back home we call that "hypocrisy" (when we feel like being overly polite).

[DaveMac-MS]

Everyone take a deep breath here. Let me explain what is going on. Let's also remember that I am not a lawyer - not sure if you are m_k. First of all, here is the full paragraph that m_k is quoting from:

Whenever you use Zune Software, it will automatically attempt to collect a content identifier and related media information for content that you play using Zune, including music and podcasts. This information will be sent to Microsoft whenever you use Zune software that is associated with a Zune account and you have an active Internet connection, and it cannot be disabled after you have associated your Zune software or device with your Zune account. If you have a Zune device, your Zune device usage history will transfer to Microsoft as described above whenever you sync your device with an Internet-enabled computer or you connect to a wireless hotspot. You can choose whether or not to publish your usage history on your Zune online community user profile page and elsewhere in the Zune online community by using the configuration page at zune.net/myaccount. Publishing your usage history can help you find other members of the Zune online community with similar musical interests. If you do not wish for your usage history to be collected, do not create a Zune account. However, as noted above, you will not be able to use many Zune features without a Zune account.

This document can be found here: http://www.zune.net/en-us/legal/zune...supplement.htm

There are two enormously important callouts in this paragraph. Firstly, "content identifier and related media information" is the limit of what is being collected and sent back to Microsoft. There is no personally identifiable information sent back without your express and explicit permission.

Secondly, "If you do not wish for your usage history to be collected, do not create a Zune account". I know it sounds harsh, but this is clearly called out. But, let me explain why we collect this data.

For any content that is subscribed to, we need to count the number of times those tracks are paid. The way we are billed for subscription content is in relation to the number of plays tracks get - and which tracks are played (and which aren't).

There are all kinds of requirements we have to abide by in order to offer a subscription service. We also have to track content that is sent from one device to another - that is, tracking the sent count, not tracking anything personally identifiable.

I _believe_ there are also licenses we pay on codecs and other components of the device that are usage dependant - which is why we need to keep count of how much content is consumed.

So - with my IANAL caveat hat on - I do not believe we are collecting personal information about you and your listening habits - we are collecting anonymous usage data as we are required to by the content owners. Further the additional (anonymous) data we do collect and use to improve our content matching systems is opt in and you can quit at anytime by deleting your Zune account.

However, for things like subscription and sending content between devices - that is usage data that we absolutely have to have.

Cheers, Dave.

[m_k]

Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS

Everyone take a deep breath here. Let me explain what is going on. Let's also remember that I am not a lawyer - not sure if you are m_k.

Smile when you say that, podnah!

No landsharks in MY family tree! I'm a former programmer, former tech writer (Que, Fawcette, VBPJ, etc.), former Contributing Editor of Visual Studio Magazine, and presently a sixtyish "disabled old guy."

(My main comments below the quoted section.)

Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS

First of all, here is the full paragraph that m_k is quoting from:



This document can be found here: http://www.zune.net/en-us/legal/zune...supplement.htm

There are two enormously important callouts in this paragraph. Firstly, "content identifier and related media information" is the limit of what is being collected and sent back to Microsoft. There is no personally identifiable information sent back without your express and explicit permission.

Secondly, "If you do not wish for your usage history to be collected, do not create a Zune account". I know it sounds harsh, but this is clearly called out. But, let me explain why we collect this data.

For any content that is subscribed to, we need to count the number of times those tracks are paid. The way we are billed for subscription content is in relation to the number of plays tracks get - and which tracks are played (and which aren't).

There are all kinds of requirements we have to abide by in order to offer a subscription service. We also have to track content that is sent from one device to another - that is, tracking the sent count, not tracking anything personally identifiable.

I _believe_ there are also licenses we pay on codecs and other components of the device that are usage dependant - which is why we need to keep count of how much content is consumed.

So - with my IANAL caveat hat on - I do not believe we are collecting personal information about you and your listening habits - we are collecting anonymous usage data as we are required to by the content owners. Further the additional (anonymous) data we do collect and use to improve our content matching systems is opt in and you can quit at anytime by deleting your Zune account.

However, for things like subscription and sending content between devices - that is usage data that we absolutely have to have.

Cheers, Dave.

I'm sorry, but I can't buy that explanation. It simply does not compute.

WHAT possible "need" does Microsoft have for information on MY listening practices, which have NO connection with them OR their content providers?

If I download podcasts from Librivox (which I have to MANUALLY horse into the Zune infrastructure due to the built-in podcast downloader routines being completely useless over a dialup modem connection), then please tell me what legal obligation Microsoft has to gather that PRIVATE information.

If they're entitiled to THAT, then I suppose they're also entitled to know what junk mail the USPS delivers to my house, what magazines I subscribe to, and what articles I read, and how many times I read them?

If I rip music off of my personally owned CD collection (the ONLY way I obtain music!) and put it on my Zune, then WHAT legal obligation does MICROSOFT have to that PRIVATE information?

And how come SANSA does NOT have an obligation to milk the same data out of my Sansa players?

And, prey tell (spelling intentional!) WHAT business is it of Microsoft's if I choose to send one of MY personal files directly from my Zune 30 to my Zune 80 via wireless -- rather than send the same file to both via cable?

And likewise, HOW on earth can they with a straight face assert that the information is "anonymous" when it is CLEARLY linked to MY account? It displays -- served by THEIR website -- having been 1) harvested from MY machine, and, 2) ASSOCIATED with MY account, served BACK to ME (knowing that it IS me!)?

I mean, the clause you quoted SAYS that it's associated with the account!

As to the CODECs issue (which you qualified with a "believe") -- nope, I'm not buying THAT special sauce either. It likewise does NOT compute, for two reasons -- one common sense (no OTHER vendor, i.e. Sansa, seems to operate on that basis, yet, they have even GREATER variety of CODEC support), and the other, self-validating, i.e., IF you are "required" to track all usage, then WHY do you allow people to NOT "opt-in" IF they manage to find that fine print BEFORE firing up their machine and putting it into gear?

Plain and simple, you can't go down that road! If you ARE "required" then you can NOT allow people to NOT block you. If you CAN allow people to block you (BEFORE they inadvertently and UNKNOWINGLY "sign up" for TRACKING AND MONITORING) then clearly, you are NOT "required" to harvest that information.

The two terms are mutually exclusive.

In other words, c'mon, pull the other one.

And, finally, a two-header: WHY make it default to "opt-IN" and HIDE it in the fine print, and THEN *prohibit* me from opting-OUT *after* I've been TRICKED into "accepting" it?

I don't have to BE a lawyer to see how egregious this is at face value! It is an affront to my privacy and basic human dignity, and in any OTHER context would be ridden out of town on the proverbial rail (as I suspect WILL be the case once it's exposed to the clear light of day).

I know you have a job to do, and god, I do NOT envy you at this moment, because there is NO way to put a happy spin on this. Basically, Microsoft has been found with MY pants down -- and I'm NOT pleased about it!

[tonti]

hi dave! should old zune users feel neglected firmware-wise now that the zune hd has been announced? microsoft has been generous with past firmware updates even to the "legacy" zune 30. however, it's pretty apparent that the new zune will use a different firmware from it's previous versions. what future updates for the zune can we expect if ever?

[DaveMac-MS]

Any device that plays back subscription content HAS to keep track of play counts and WILL send this data back to the provider via whatever connectivity the device has. If the Sansa works with subscription content (Rhapsody perhaps?) then yes, it will DEFINITELY do this.

Think about it - how do the labels pay their respective artists if they don't know what you're downloading and how often you're playing content? Nothing nefarious about that at all - makes complete sense.

I don't know for sure about the other stuff you've raised - not trying to be evasive, but clearly you aren't receptive to any ideas around why this could be completely innocuous, so I'll refrain until I have more info. But... I know for a fact that there is a difference between "personal information" and "personally identifiable information" - and Microsoft is religious about the sanctity of PII.

You may believe that since your account has personal information and PII that we would just bundle it all up and do with it as we want. Well, that's absolutely not the case. Personal information (like how many times a non-identified user played "Thunderstruck") is fair game here, per our content licensing obligations. PII ("Bob Smith, 32, male, single, 1313 Mockingbird Lane, Redmond, WA played "Thunderstruck" 18 times) is very, very different and program managers/designers have to go through very considerable legal and business hoops to be able to track that in applications (and NEVER without consent).

Cheers, Dave.

[m_k]

You seem to be missing the point here, and it's a VERY nontrivial matter!

Frankly I don't give a rat's patoo what you do with "subscription" stuff -- so long as whatever you and THOSE WHO SUBSCRIBE are mutually amenable to it.

But, what's happening to ME (and I suspect millions LIKE me) is that stuff with NO "subscription" nexus IS being harvested -- and, I'm given an ex-post-facto "Simon Says" option to avoid it, but ONLY if I avoid it by FIRST reading the fine print hidden away in a chokepile of legalese.

In essence, a GOOD metaphor would be for the police to have a right to enter my house and perform a search at any time for any reason they choose, because some OTHER people are ex-cons on parole, with "police may search at any time for any reason" being a CONDITION of their parole.

I, however, am NOT an ex-con, and am NOT on parole -- yet, I'm being told to shut up and eat it, because there "needs" to be this sort of invasive harvesting (which is contradicted -- I point out for the nth time -- by MSFT *allowing* me to NOT be subject to IF and ONLY if I manage to read the fine print BEFORE it's too late) for OTHER people.

And PLEASE don't try to "pull the other one" by telling me that MSFT has no way of knowing that MY content is *not* DRM'd content. If one thing is clear, it's that DRM'd stuff BY NATURE is evident *as* DRM'd stuff.

In the ABSENCE of any DRM'd material, there is NO "need" -- or RIGHT! -- except by trickery, which I believe to be a VERY shaky ground to stand on, if the recent events I'm reading about are any indication.

Have you seen THIS business?

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10293633-93.html

The parallels seem to me to be uncanny. "Permission" granted via "fine print" trickery, virtual impossibility of extraction once tricked into being ensnared, and INCREDIBLY *bad* press once the light shines on the practice!