General questions regarding customization of Zen Mozaic

[BobbyRS]

No problem. Let us know how it goes.

[CrowdAds]

[cyberstoic]

Thanks for the endorsement. I just ordered the 16 gig from creative's website, and I can't wait for it to arrive!

[BobbyRS]

Congrats cyberstoic! Enjoy your new Zen.

[FANTA5Y]

@BobbyRS i followed it al but i didnt work! do you know a other way?

[BobbyRS]

No, not really. Creative Centrale is what is supposed to be used. Other than VirtualDub, not real sure....

[Tiger-Heli]

Sorry if this is a minor HiJack, but I also am considering the Mozaic and had some questions about it.

First off - I have owned two MP3 players previously - A Visual Land 4GB that was drag-n-drop, but lacked random play and was hard to navigate, and a Gigaware (RadioShack), that was MTP and died in a month.

4GB is about the minimum storage that I would want, but I might go with 8GB. In a way I like the 4GB Zen Stone with speaker, b/c the Gigaware worked well clipped to the brim of a baseball cap when I was doing yardwork - the external speakers for the Mozaic sound interesting though - and it comes in 8GB ...

The main thing that concerns me is the Creative Centrale and MTP interface.

The Gigaware was supposed to be MTP, but my computer wouldn't recognize it that way (never figured out why), but I could tell it to use the MSC driver and drag-n-drop to it, which worked fine.

The Creative user Manual (help file) says I can set an MSC partition or use Centrale, but mentions formatting a dedicated partition, so sounds like more than just using a different driver.

I am hoping someone can explain to me what are the pro's and con's of using the Centrale software as opposed to setting a full 4GB or 8GB MSC partition and drag-n-dropping.

Thanks!

[BobbyRS]

Originally Posted by Tiger-Heli

The main thing that concerns me is the Creative Centrale and MTP interface.

Yes, the Creative software is pretty terrible

Originally Posted by Tiger-Heli

The Gigaware was supposed to be MTP, but my computer wouldn't recognize it that way (never figured out why), but I could tell it to use the MSC driver and drag-n-drop to it, which worked fine.

If your computer doesn't have MTP properly installed and working, then you may continue to have issues with other MTP devices. You should resolve the MTP issues your computer is having. Keep in mind, if you are using Windows XP with WMP11, the Windows Media Framework/MTP is installed with WMP10 or WMP11 (Vista has native MTP support). To get the most stability out of MTP, you should use WMP11. Once WMP11/MTP is installed, the Zen should show under My Computer as a Portable Device and not as a drive letter. At this point, you can chose to use a Sync/Media Manager software like WMP11, MediaMonkey, Creative software... or you can just simply drag-and-drop your files through Windows Explorer, just like and MSC device.

Originally Posted by Tiger-Heli

The Creative user Manual (help file) says I can set an MSC partition or use Centrale, but mentions formatting a dedicated partition, so sounds like more than just using a different driver.

You can set aside a data partition to be used just like a flash driver. In order to use this partition, the Zen needs to be put in a Removable Disk mode. Once in this mode and connected, you can utilize the space that you specified for the partition size for misc. data. Keep in mind, when in this mode, you cannot access the other main partition of the Zen to where your media files are stored.

Originally Posted by Tiger-Heli

I am hoping someone can explain to me what are the pro's and con's of using the Centrale software as opposed to setting a full 4GB or 8GB MSC partition and drag-n-dropping.

Like I said above.... drag-and-drop is not something that is only one one or the other. An MTP device, used with an MTP compatible Operating System can be used with drag-and-drop as well. However, the big difference is in how the device organizes the media you put on it. MTP devices mainly organize by ID3 tag information and not by file/folder. So, make sure your tgs are correct.

[Tiger-Heli]

Thanks BobbyRS - I still have a few more questions ...

Originally Posted by BobbyRS

You should resolve the MTP issues your computer is having. Keep in mind, if you are using Windows XP with WMP11, the Windows Media Framework/MTP is installed with WMP10 or WMP11.

I am using WinXP with WMP10. (I had a bunch of services turned off though). I tried to install WMP11, but that computer does not have Internet, so I downloaded WMP11 from Microsoft's site, but then it wanted to connect before it would install (Genuine Verification, or whatever).

I might try to get WMP11 installed from a third party site (download.com or Major Geeks or similar).

The problem is the Gigaware player died and was returned, so until I get the Mozaic, I won't know if it works or not, so it might be a bit late to find out by then.

You can set aside a data partition to be used just like a flash driver. In order to use this partition, the Zen needs to be put in a Removable Disk mode. Once in this mode and connected, you can utilize the space that you specified for the partition size for misc. data. Keep in mind, when in this mode, you cannot access the other main partition of the Zen to where your media files are stored.

Let me re-phrase this again this way: With the Gigaware, I set the entire device as MSC. With the Zen, if I get a 4GB and allocate 4GB as Removable Disk Mode, can I put my media files there and play them on the Zen, or will it only play the files that are on the MTP partition (that I would not have?)

However, the big difference is in how the device organizes the media you put on it. MTP devices mainly organize by ID3 tag information and not by file/folder. So, make sure your tgs are correct.

I don't like media managers, but the Gigaware (even as MSC) only supported browsing by ID3 tag, and that was fine. My ID3 tags are in good shape.

I'll be gone until tomorrow, but appreciate the response and any follow-up!!!

[BobbyRS]

Originally Posted by Tiger-Heli

Thanks BobbyRS - I still have a few more questions ...

No problem.

Originally Posted by Tiger-Heli

I am using WinXP with WMP10. (I had a bunch of services turned off though). I tried to install WMP11, but that computer does not have Internet, so I downloaded WMP11 from Microsoft's site, but then it wanted to connect before it would install (Genuine Verification, or whatever).

I might try to get WMP11 installed from a third party site (download.com or Major Geeks or similar).

Yes, I would get WMP11 installed.

Originally Posted by Tiger-Heli

Let me re-phrase this again this way: With the Gigaware, I set the entire device as MSC. With the Zen, if I get a 4GB and allocate 4GB as Removable Disk Mode, can I put my media files there and play them on the Zen, or will it only play the files that are on the MTP partition (that I would not have?)

The Zen cannot be set to MSC. It is an MTP device only. Only the partition can be set and used as an MSC device. You cannot see any files on this partition from the Zen and when the Zen is in this mode connected to the computer, you cannot see any files on the Zen's main partition.

Originally Posted by Tiger-Heli

I don't like media managers, but the Gigaware (even as MSC) only supported browsing by ID3 tag, and that was fine. My ID3 tags are in good shape.

I don't either. I mainly use drag-and-drop in Windows Explorer for managing my media on the Zen.

[Tiger-Heli]

Drats - more questions than answers ...

I found WMP 11 on Download.com and FileHippo, but it has the same file name and size as the one I downloaded from Microsoft - I guess my main question now is how to install WMP 11 without an internet connection on the PC, since it will not connect to the Genuine Advantage Verification website with no internet connection.

Any suggestions? (N/M - I think I found several ways to do that - the main one involves using WinRar and two separate installs, probably not kosher to post links or say much more here).

Also, I have a USB capable car deck and it could read the Gigaware player using the USB connection - any idea if that would work with the Mosaic or a true MTP device? (I'm guessing probably not, but don't know).

Thanks again!

[BobbyRS]

Originally Posted by Tiger-Heli

Also, I have a USB capable car deck and it could read the Gigaware player using the USB connection - any idea if that would work with the Mosaic or a true MTP device? (I'm guessing probably not, but don't know).

Most Stereos with USB ports only work with MSC devices and not MTP devices. For a thread discussing this and some examples of some stereos that support MTP devices, see this thread.

[Tiger-Heli]

Great thread on the car stereos.

Oddly, I have a Sony CDX-GT410u, which is last year's version of the CDX-GT420u that the other thread said worked with the Zen. I know the Gigaware player worked with my Sony and it was MTP, although it would also work as MSC.

I got WMP 11 installed yesterday, and noticed a new glitch - I didn't have them on the Gigaware, but I have a few various artists albums. WMP 11 (and presumably the Zen) will show me having a bunch of artists that I only have one song on one album by). (I realize I could re-tag those files on the Zen to show the artist name as the same as the album name, but it's an extra step - not a huge deal, though).

Also - I still don't know if my PC supports MTP, b/c with WMP 10, the error I was getting was "Unable to start Service", but no mention of WHICH service it couldn't start.

At this point I am pretty much debating between the Zen Stone with Speaker and the Zen Mozaic - and the Mozaic has more unknowns, but I seem to like it a bit better.

Pros/Cons:

Zen Stone uses the same type of clip mechanism that I like. Zen Mosaic could with the skin that adds the clip.

Zen Stone arguably has a better internal speaker sound quality (and this is mainly what I will use).

Zen Stone is MSC, so it will work with my PC, and would work with the car stereo. Mozaic may not work with the PC, and may not work with the car stereo, but sounds like it likely will.

Zen Stone is only available up to 4GB, and that only directly from Creative. Mozaic is available in 4GB locally and 8GB and 16GB from Creative direct. (The GigaWare was 4GB and I had 870 songs on it - it worked well, but I probably would have loaded another 40 or so songs if I could. I doubt I need 8GB, but 4GB is the minimum I would want.)

Stone supports browsing by folder, which I am used to from the car USB port, but not a big deal either way.

Mozaic seems to have a better interface and display, and also supports "Album of the Day", etc. which I think seems like a great feature.

Overall, I'm leaning more toward the Mozaic.

EDIT: And both of the ones I like are currently out-of-stock at Creative.

Thanks again for all the helpful advice!!!

[BobbyRS]

No problem. It sounds like you are leaning towards the Stone.

- Your computer has known MTP problem.
- You prefer MSC device
- You prefer file/folder browsing
- It will work with your stereo for sure

- The Mozaic may not work with your stereo
- It may have problems with your computer until MTP is corrected
- You need some more ID3 tag work (no big deal, it seems like a never ending battle)

However, the Mozaic does have more storage space, better interface, more features....

- you can always fix the MTP issues with your computer
- you can always fix your tags
- the stereo may work....

It's your call.

[Tiger-Heli]

My main remaining question would be sound quality with the internal speakers between the Stone and the Mozaic - that is primarily how I will use it. (If anyone owns both and could comment?)

I'm actually leaning more towards the Mozaic - I like the interface and "Album of the day feature" and 4GB is ALMOST enough storage, but ...

The car stereo usage was cool, but I use flash drives most of the time - it wasn't a huge issue.

[BobbyRS]

I haven't heard the speaker on the Mozaic yet, so I can't really compare.

[Tiger-Heli]

Another quick question -

I found that the Zen Stone only plays in random mode if you have the clock enabled, and then the battery life goes down about 15% per day - I guess I could turn the clock on when I first used it and off when I shut it down (would that eliminate the problem?), but I was wondering if the Mozaic also had the same problem, or does it's random mode work properly?

[BobbyRS]

Yeah, I'm aware of that issue on the Stone. However, I have yet to hear anyone confirm if the Mozaic has the same issue. It really isn't the same type of player, so I'm thinking no.

[Tiger-Heli]

I would like to clarify a bit more about the car stereo - Sony added a feature called QuickBrowzer to the CDX-GT420u, which allow you to search USB devices by ID3 tag. My CDX-GT410u does not have this feature and so it is very possible that it will not work with MTP devices.

Also, I figured out from other reviews how the Gigaware could work with the car stereo - Apparently, you can set up a USB device to enumerate itself to the host machine as either an MSC or MTP device (whichever it is looking for), so the PC asked me what driver I wanted to install (or on the ones that worked, installed as MTP), but the car stereo saw it as an MSC device without me having to change any settings. It seems to me like this should be universal firmware feature for players, b/c it gives them cross-platform access.

Also, if anyone wants to look at my other thread (BobbyRS already has), I will probably be posting my remaining questions there and would welcome more inputs.

[BobbyRS]

Originally Posted by Tiger-Heli

My CDX-GT410u does not have this feature and so it is very possible that it will not work with MTP devices.

From Sony's website on the CDX-GT410u:

Can I use a Microsoft MTP (Media Transfer Protocol) device?




No, it cannot be used with this device. Make sure your device is Mass Storage class compliant.

Originally Posted by Tiger-Heli

It seems to me like this should be universal firmware feature for players, b/c it gives them cross-platform access.

Yeah, it would be nice wouldn't.... but many manufactures don't do this.

[Tiger-Heli]

Thanks BobbyRS ...

That pretty much confirms the Mosaic won't work with the car stereo and the Stone will.

That wasn't a deciding factor for me, but the Stone is less expensive and does more what I want, and the Mosaic is more appealing to me for double the price (when you factor in the clip and the 8GB version).

Decisions ....