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  #21  
Old 12-22-2008, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Cptnodegard View Post
I use gapless myself, HOWEVER most people don't care. Out of a few million units sold of a player maybe 50-100 on this forum have it, so "what customers want" isn't exactly a term anyone should use without being able to prove it based on actualy customer base and not who screams the loudest. The obvious choice in the first post would be "3: it's not profitable". ipods and zunes are made in a completely different way, they are devices that are natural followers of existing ones, the same can be said for Sony although they don't have gapless. Players from the likes of cowon are completely new players each time they release them and they aren't organized in any way, just random player releases. Sure some of the model numbers might make it look like they are related but they really aren't. Point being that when a feature is there with sony, apple, microsoft, it's there for their next players as well. As such, the implementation of a thing such as gapless is a long term thing not a single player venture.
I still fail to understand why implementing gapless playback is such a big deal. I mean, who does not like gapless? It's a feature that only carries benefits with no drawbacks. Stand-alone tracks have silence appended to their end 99% of the time so the mandatory gap servers absolutely no purpose.

The reason why there's no big demand for gapless playback is that masses rarely even listen to complete, consistent albums, let alone albums with connected tracks. They are simply not aware of the feature.

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  #22  
Old 12-22-2008, 02:39 PM
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Mp3 is by default not gapless. Inplementing it isnt as easy as removing the player made gap.

  #23  
Old 12-22-2008, 02:43 PM
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LAME since v3.93 is gapless by default, the official (flawed) 1980ies MP3 specs however aren't. MP3 players should just handle it properly. It's 2008 and there's no excuse for DAP manufacturers to not support it. None. It is no big effing deal - Rockbox can do it, and so can the market leader, Apple. Not to mention each and every relevant software player on any computer platform.

People who don't need gapless (or don't know why it's such a big deal for some people) should just shut up about it. It doesn't concern them anyway. Gapless doesn't mean that there will be no silence between tracks where there should be silence, it just makes sure there is no silence where it would be annoying. Nothing changes for people who don't care about it, a lot changes for people who indeed care about it. There is no reason to discuss it from that point of view.

  #24  
Old 12-22-2008, 02:55 PM
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Of course it doesnt matter for people that dont use it. Its also very annoying not to have it. Still, with players made to please idiots companies instead focus on games and dogs running around the god damn screen (any chance to bash samsung ill take it).

  #25  
Old 12-22-2008, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dfkt View Post
ZMTP, Zune Software, no mass storage, no EQ/enhancements, no support for any open source codec at all... do I need to go on?
LOL, well its still a formidable PMP there are several things to like about it, which is why I bought it over the iPod. But staying somewhat on topic. The Zune no longer has gapless playback on WMA Lossless after the 3.1 update. So yeah maybe crippled but still serviceable.
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  #26  
Old 12-22-2008, 07:07 PM
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*rips music to ipod Touch* Thanks for reminding me!
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  #27  
Old 12-22-2008, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by dfkt View Post
People who don't need gapless (or don't know why it's such a big deal for some people) should just shut up about it. It doesn't concern them anyway. Gapless doesn't mean that there will be no silence between tracks where there should be silence, it just makes sure there is no silence where it would be annoying. Nothing changes for people who don't care about it, a lot changes for people who indeed care about it. There is no reason to discuss it from that point of view.
DFKT, this is the best explanation I saw in these forums on what gapless playback is all about. I think a lot of people are confused, thinking that gapless playback is supposed to skip all gaps, even though the artist did not intend to do so.

Having said this, I think whoever thought of the term gapless playback did not do a good job in the termonology. I think True Playback is a better metaphor.
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  #28  
Old 12-22-2008, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by dfkt View Post
People who don't need gapless (or don't know why it's such a big deal for some people) should just shut up about it. It doesn't concern them anyway. Gapless doesn't mean that there will be no silence between tracks where there should be silence, it just makes sure there is no silence where it would be annoying. Nothing changes for people who don't care about it, a lot changes for people who indeed care about it. There is no reason to discuss it from that point of view.

OK this is kind of a WTF moment for me. To take things to their logical conclusions, we shouldn`t even talk about PMP/MP3 players, because come on, who *needs* them to survive? Why bother with voting? Half of the people couldn`t care less about governments and the other half don`t even know what governments are meant for, and, according to you, are in no position to vote. I`m not being very eloquent here, but anyone feeling this WTF-ness?

From another angle, something that "does not concern people" is a concern in itself, just as "nothing" is something in itself -- it is void, emptiness, whatever you like to call it, or don`t call it. But first to take a step back, just because people don`t need/understand something does not mean that thing is of no concern to them. Adding playback can postpond the release date, cut battery life, cause bugs, etc. Cowon is *not* a software developer, unlike Apple or Rockbox or Microsoft Zune which, directly or indirectly, are affiliated with software development experts. Looking at their target market (i.e. Asia) and consumer demand, there is next to no need for them to go through the trouble of implementing gapless playback from a business point-of-view.

And, given all that, you (and others) still bitch and moan about the lack of gapless support. Why? Oh, because "it is annoying." Yea, WTF again. WTF. Not even that, you even try to shut the majority of the people up because their opinion is different from yours (along with a selected few). For the third time, WTF. I can live with claims that it is "annoying," that "many 'artists' include skits or tie songs together," that Cowon sucks because even "crippled" PMPs support gapless, but the fact that you have the balls to even try to suppress the majority`s voices for *all the wrong reasons* on a bloody public forum just goes against what all forums, democracy, rights, and I myself stand for. Highly disappointing.

P.S. I have no problem with people bitching and moaning about gapless -- after all, that is what this topic demands and that is what poeple should expect when viewing this thread. It is when people like you who claim that your viewpoint is the only valid one that I have a problem with.

Good day.

  #29  
Old 12-22-2008, 08:33 PM
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You grossly misunderstood my post or misinterpreted it on purpose. I might have worded it a bit strong, but I have no idea what actually triggered your angry vitriolic comment.

I have no intention to justify myself any further or respond to your insults. Welcome to the ABi forums, have a nice and relaxing stay.

  #30  
Old 12-23-2008, 05:06 AM
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Several posts by Phate, musichound and Uphaillife have been removed due to lack of ability to stay civilized and on topic. Act civilized or you're all gone.

What dfkt means seem to be that from his standpoint, devices like the zune and the ipod are "crippled" from a pro user standpoint due to software dependability etc. When such players that targets consumers who might not use gapless have that ability, then pro players like cowon players should have too. The implementation of gapless won't affect anyone that don't like it because it doesn't turn on without the person doing so and it doesnt affect battery life etc. With the ipod, you can go for years without even knowing the feature is there because to activate it you right click and album in itunes, select options and check "gapless album". As such, no-one should be against it because it helps some people while the ones it doesnt help it also doesnt affect

What phate seem to have tried to say in between political rambling and overuse of the term "WTF" is that any software implementation can delay the release of the player, and cowon aren't software developers. If its not a good choice from a business standpoint, they won't do it.

Bottom line is that most features on a mp3 player are features that doesn't affect people that dont use them, be it games, flash skins or whatever. You yourself dfkt have been annoyed at cowon's inability to fix software bugs, video support etc on the D2 and instead spend time on flash games, flash UI and scicntific calculators. It doesnt affect you that the games are there - you simply want them to concentrate on something else instead when doing the firmware updates. Gapless is the same principle, and if the total amount of work cowon is putting in for firmware is a constant, then gapless will affect other features that while being useless to you might be useful to others. Cowon only does the best they can to choose what to focus on based on all consumers, not only those on forums.

Again, if they only used the same basic OS on all players like apple, microsoft and sony then they wouldn't have to redo everything for all players, and they could fit more in.

  #31  
Old 12-23-2008, 05:15 AM
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Cptnodegard, well said. And I agree that gapless, at this point in time, should be a standard on all players, not just Cowon.

I'll put it this way, and it is true, if M$ can do it, any company can.

Last edited by The DarkSide; 12-23-2008 at 05:22 AM.

  #32  
Old 12-23-2008, 05:20 AM
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Phate, dkft's words were a little strong but all he meant was that there is no reason not to have gapless at all. Not one. So there's no real point in arguing against gapless being included.

I share the frustration when every topic I've seen with gapless involved has someone saying "well, I don't care for it so I don't have a problem with it"... Good for you mate, that was constructive. So yeah, I actually agree with dfkt. It's like posting on a thread about the Zune 80 stating that I only have 12gb of music so the extra space is pointless just for that reason.

I don't actually see much of that on here, a lot of the arguments are just stating that it is difficult to implement and isn't worth the companies spending the time and money on it. Which is true. So it did look a bit out of place.

EDIT: Damn, waay too slow!

  #33  
Old 12-23-2008, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by musichound View Post
DFKT, this is the best explanation I saw in these forums on what gapless playback is all about. I think a lot of people are confused, thinking that gapless playback is supposed to skip all gaps, even though the artist did not intend to do so.

Having said this, I think whoever thought of the term gapless playback did not do a good job in the termonology. I think True Playback is a better metaphor.

so does gapless playback mean i get to listen to the songs by a particular artist continuously (the way it is in album ?) .. could u explain it in a better way pls
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  #34  
Old 12-23-2008, 06:29 AM
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so does gapless playback mean i get to listen to the songs by a particular artist continuously (the way it is in album ?) .. could u explain it in a better way pls
Not exctly. Gapless removes the tiny pause in between tracks. Take pink floyds famous gapless album "the wall" - the entire album is sort of one track with each induvidual track fading into the other. The gap on such albums gives you a tiny pause that sounds like its right in the middle of a track. Gapless however lets you skip this track so you can listen to the entire album like it was meant to, seamless transition from one track to the other

  #35  
Old 12-23-2008, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ronnie View Post
so does gapless playback mean i get to listen to the songs by a particular artist continuously (the way it is in album ?) .. could u explain it in a better way pls
http://http://iaudiophile.net/forums...&postcount=268

That's an explanation I did for someone else, hope it helps.

  #36  
Old 12-23-2008, 06:32 AM
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so does gapless playback mean i get to listen to the songs by a particular artist continuously (the way it is in album ?) .. could u explain it in a better way pls
Gapless playback means that the player does not leave a gap of silence between two tracks. These gaps can be best noticed by listening to continuous albums [ie: insteading of ending in silence, tracks blend seamlessly]. If your player doesn't support gapless (most portable players don't) you notice a brief jerk between tracks.

Example: On Kraftwerk's 'Computer World'-album there's a track called 'Numbers' which is supposed to blend seamlessly into the next track, 'Computer World 2'. If your player supports gapless, you won't even notice that the track changes.

  #37  
Old 12-23-2008, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Phate View Post
OK this is kind of a WTF moment for me. To take things to their logical conclusions, we shouldn`t even talk about PMP/MP3 players, because come on, who *needs* them to survive? Why bother with voting? Half of the people couldn`t care less about governments and the other half don`t even know what governments are meant for, and, according to you, are in no position to vote. I`m not being very eloquent here, but anyone feeling this WTF-ness?

From another angle, something that "does not concern people" is a concern in itself, just as "nothing" is something in itself -- it is void, emptiness, whatever you like to call it, or don`t call it. But first to take a step back, just because people don`t need/understand something does not mean that thing is of no concern to them. Adding playback can postpond the release date, cut battery life, cause bugs, etc. Cowon is *not* a software developer, unlike Apple or Rockbox or Microsoft Zune which, directly or indirectly, are affiliated with software development experts. Looking at their target market (i.e. Asia) and consumer demand, there is next to no need for them to go through the trouble of implementing gapless playback from a business point-of-view.

And, given all that, you (and others) still bitch and moan about the lack of gapless support. Why? Oh, because "it is annoying." Yea, WTF again. WTF. Not even that, you even try to shut the majority of the people up because their opinion is different from yours (along with a selected few). For the third time, WTF. I can live with claims that it is "annoying," that "many 'artists' include skits or tie songs together," that Cowon sucks because even "crippled" PMPs support gapless, but the fact that you have the balls to even try to suppress the majority`s voices for *all the wrong reasons* on a bloody public forum just goes against what all forums, democracy, rights, and I myself stand for. Highly disappointing.

P.S. I have no problem with people bitching and moaning about gapless -- after all, that is what this topic demands and that is what poeple should expect when viewing this thread. It is when people like you who claim that your viewpoint is the only valid one that I have a problem with.

Good day.
I'm pretty sure that Gapless playback increases sales by more than 5%. I know many many people from many forums/sites and in person that got an ipod, karma, vibez, zune, etc. over other players just because of the gapless feature. And I know many more that bitch to the company to get it to make gapless playback in a firmware update for the players they already own. There are many of us who have live concert cds, dance mixes, classical music, etc. that will greatly appreciate gapless playback.

Cowon is an audiophile pmp company that does have expert software developers. They specialize in the development of sophisticated technology of BBE, MP Enhance, and so forth. These technologies take expert software development skills to pull off. Even the scientific calculator of the d2 is not easy to do for an amateur. Gapless playback should be very elementary for them to implement. If not, then cowon could at least look at the gapless source code of Rockbox showing how to easily do it. I think even the author of foobar has sources on it. If battery life is an issue then just offer the option to turn it off.

Cowon is in the business of making money, otherwise their players would be a lot cheaper. With that said, it is common sense to include gapless playback if it will significantly increase sales and isn't too hard to impliment.
And remember, it only takes once to implement. After that all future generations will have it without much trouble.

Dtk comments were just for you to understand that since gapless, if it can be easily implimented, takes nothing away then it is nonsensical for anyone to comment against it. Also we gapless lovers don't want someone unnecessarily helping convince the companies that may be reading these posts that gapless is a mistake.

  #38  
Old 12-23-2008, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clubcard View Post
Gapless playback means that the player does not leave a gap of silence between two tracks. These gaps can be best noticed by listening to continuous albums [ie: insteading of ending in silence, tracks blend seamlessly]. If your player doesn't support gapless (most portable players don't) you notice a brief jerk between tracks.

Example: On Kraftwerk's 'Computer World'-album there's a track called 'Numbers' which is supposed to blend seamlessly into the next track, 'Computer World 2'. If your player supports gapless, you won't even notice that the track changes.
OMG!! Kraftwerk was the main reason why I want gapless players. I thought I was the only one in the world with 'Computer World' album. I also want gapless because of Trans Europe Express (the original and The Mix).

But a better explanation of gapless playback is that the player does not leave a gap of silence between two tracks that don't normally have it. If the tracks naturally have silence between them then gapless playback will not get rid of that silence. Meaning, gapless playback will only be noticed if two tracks were intended to sound like one track (like some tracks on a cd).

  #39  
Old 12-23-2008, 02:18 PM
ronnie ronnie is offline
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oh okaye.. got it... thx everyone for that.. yeah and 'The Wall' is something i can relate to gapless
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  #40  
Old 12-23-2008, 03:08 PM
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:P. my bad. anyways thanks for at least not banning me without notice or a warning.

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