Is there really anything better than Ipod?

[Nud3EskimoNinja]

Hello all. First Post.
I've never owned an Ipod but I'm very tempted to switch to one.
I told my friend this and he laughed at me. He said I was following the
blindness of the crowd, more for looks and so on and so forth. However maybe there is a reason that Ipod has so much of the market. The following is not supposed to be a comparison of the Ipod player or the Apple company. I'm just venting.

I've only owned a "Ipod hurter" bka "Ipod killer" and am getting sick with the sub-par crap that supposedly is "better than Ipod".

Companies like Cowon and iRiver, release their players and after a couple of firmware updates, the updates stop and they focus on newer projects. What happen to standing behind their project.

What is with the non-replaceable batteries? Lithium Ion batteries have on an average of a 1.5 to 2 year life span. Then most players have to be "sent in" to get the battery replaces, that is if they still make batteries for that player. If they can't even release decent firmware updates, forgive me for the lack of confidence, but how do i know that batteries should be available in two or even four years after I have bought my player.

Then you have companies like SanDisk with their e200 series. A great looking players, user changeable battery and with some minor design flaws but their Achilles heel is their firmware. They are really trying to fill the consumers needs (What is it 3 firmware updates already?) With rumor that they are looking for outside help from Rockbox to create an even better firmware. You have to admire that support they put behind their product. However there are just too many problems with the player for my liking.

The problem is always "either or". IAudio X5 has some nice quality products but a crappy interface. SanDisk e280 has great potential but just too many problems due to firmware. Creative Zen V plus would be great, minus it's plastic design.

The one thing that is going for non-Ipods are that a lot of them are feature packed. However I just want a player that works most of the time that will last me at least 3-4 years. Min. 6GB, small, battery replaceable in some form, good battery time, with good communication between player and computer.
Is that so much to ask?

Ok I've let out all my steam. Not a great first post. Sorry.
Feel free to throw the s*** back into my face.
Peace.

[ZenChick]

Do iPods have user-replaceable batteries? I'm not aware of it if they do...

As for a real iPod-killer, have you looked at Creative's Zen Vision:M? Between its brighter, clearer screen, better display of colors, twice the battery life during video playback, better sound, better sound processing (better EQ settings, etc.), better photo management (supports folder hierarchy, etc.), ability to control volume from any context menu (does the iPod still require you to drop all the way back to the "Now Playing" screen just to adjust the volume?), better support for subscription services (iPod is restricted to iTMS)... I'm hard-pressed finding anything that the iPod is better at than the ZV:M!

And the Vision:M isn't the only one out there that can beat the pants off an iPod, either.

[Nud3EskimoNinja]

Originally Posted by ZenChick

Do iPods have user-replaceable batteries? I'm not aware of it if they do...

I know that battery kits are available for the Ipod through third party companies.

Originally Posted by ZenChick

And the Vision:M isn't the only one out there that can beat the pants off an iPod, either.

I'm not trying to slam non-Ipods but I have to disagree saying that ANYTHING is better than Ipod. To do that I would be as ignornant as someone that buys an Ipod just cuz everyone else says it's "cool". I just feel that Ipod is up "there" as one of the better players.

If I was looking for a 30gb+ player I would probably go with the CZV:M also. If am I am looking at a flash player, I probably go with a Nano or maybe just maybe a Zen V: plus.

[ZenChick]

Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to say that anything is better than the iPod. God knows there's a lot of crapware on the market. iPod is a worthy adversary and a good benchmark by which to measure DAPs and PMP's in general. But there are a few players out there that positively pwns the iPod. ZV:M is one of them. The Zen V Plus would certainly give the Nanos a run for their money as well. I've heard a lot of good things about the iAudio players, and the Zune could give iPod owners something to think about as well.

The only area where iPod completely owns all the other players is in market saturation and availability of accessories. It will probably continue to be this way for some time to come. Kinda interesting considering the first DAP in existence was a Creative.

[Nud3EskimoNinja]

Originally Posted by ZenChick

The only area where iPod completely owns all the other players is in market saturation and availability of accessories. It will probably continue to be this way for some time to come.

I think that the Itunes to Ipod intergration is a very unrated advantage (could be a personal opinion though). Iriver isn't supposed to be great and WMediaPlayer ain't a pocket full of fun.

What I think is making the Ipod successful is the easy access for the general population. Everyone ain't like us "techno-elite" that demand flawless playback, adjustable EQ and etc. People just want to listen to music. Be able to rip their music and then transfer it over to their player. Ipod and Itunes does that. Play for Sure devices ain't that easy. I've helped many people just put music on their Play for Sure devices cuz they couldn't get it.

Look at handheld gaming. Playstation Portable clearly has the better technology but the Nintendo DS is still blowing them away. Why? DS focus is on the "general" population. The same can be said about DAPs. I think for a company especially like IAudio it tends to focus more to the "hardcore" listener.

I think to dethrone the Ipod companies just gotta to keep it simple. "Dumb" unfortunately is what most consumers speak. If it takes too much thought to listen to music people shut it out.

[ZenChick]

That's a good point. iPod and iTunes have been around for several years, whereas PlaysForSure is still rather new. It's going to take some time to work the kinks out of the PFS interface.

I have to admit that iTunes is a very easy-to-use application. This is definitely an area in which the non-iPod companies desperately need improvement. Creative has no fewer than four different applications for various library management tasks; their flagship program, MediaSource, is a badly designed confusing mass of WTF. Windows Media Player still has far too many flaws to make it an effective interface. SonicStage? Fuhgeddaboudit!

If any of these companies are going to be able to really compete with the iPod, they're going to need to put more effort into their software development. The interfacing software should be intuitive and easy to use for beginners, and still pack all the features required by power users. The UI needs to be clean and free of clutter, and logically organized.

Creative has come very, very close to those criteria with its Media Explorer, but it's still not a complete package (requires the other included applications for full functionality), and isn't quite intuitive enough for someone used to iTunes to easily switch over to - nor does it directly support music stores or subscriptions.

So, essentially, what you've got is hardware that can easily surpass the iPod on their technical merits, cobbled by badly-written software.

[Nud3EskimoNinja]

Originally Posted by ZenChick

That's a good point. iPod and iTunes have been around for several years, whereas PlaysForSure is still rather new. It's going to take some time to work the kinks out of the PFS interface.

What I wonder now is how the PlaysForSure will work out with Microsoft putting all their focus on their own player now. I think there is too much hype about the Zune but it has the potential in the hardware. I think it will be the software that decides its fate.

Originally Posted by ZenChick

So, essentially, what you've got is hardware that can easily surpass the iPod on their technical merits, cobbled by badly-written software.

Exactly. Put the Ipod head to head with IAudio X5 or the Creative Vision:M the latter wins. Put the players packaged with software, that's what scares people to buy Ipod. I've been tempted to buy an Ipod just because my patience ran out fighting Windows Media Player or simliar programs.

What is needed is a open source program (is there any?) that can sequence with all non-Ipod (or maybe Ipods too!) players that is not only simple for the average user but a quality program.

It wouldn't hurt companies like IAudio and Iriver to have better customer service and more firmware updates.

[ZenChick]

Originally Posted by Nud3EskimoNinja

What is needed is a open source program (is there any?) that can sequence with all non-Ipod (or maybe Ipods too!) players that is not only simple for the average user but a quality program.

I don't know if there's one out there now, but there's one in development for Creative players (specifically the ZVM) that shows incredible promise. Check out the Absolutely Zen forum!

[Doggy Daddy]

Right here

[ZenChick]

Originally Posted by Doggy Daddy

Right here

Ummm... Wrong thread, hon.

[Raiders757]

Some good points being rased.

I own three MP3 players out of the five in my household, and am only familiar with a few versions of the iPod(due to friends owning them).

Originally Posted by Nud3EskimoNinja

Hello all. First Post.
Companies like Cowon and iRiver, release their players and after a couple of firmware updates, the updates stop and they focus on newer projects. What happen to standing behind their project.

That is a shame, if that is case. I have no personal experience that I can be objective with to that statement. I own an iRiver iFP-890 256MB flash player, and it has worked so well, I have never bothered with a firmware upgrade, or even tried out their customer support. It's two years old, I might add. I would hate to think that any producer of MP3 players would just give up on their product, if they were still defective. That's not good busines.

The question is, with all the diferent players the iPod brand has come out with over the years, could they have not possibly done the same thing with a few of theirs as well?

What is with the non-replaceable batteries? Lithium Ion batteries have on an average of a 1.5 to 2 year life span. Then most players have to be "sent in" to get the battery replaces, that is if they still make batteries for that player. If they can't even release decent firmware updates, forgive me for the lack of confidence, but how do i know that batteries should be available in two or even four years after I have bought my player.

I am with you this one 100%. I love the fact that my Zen Micro has a removable battery. I don't understand why it's not standard equipment on all players. It was one of a few major selling points for me when I bought it.

On the other hand, I was very hesitant when upgrading to a player with a bigger HD. It really did bother me that none of them offered an easy to replace battery. This included iPods as well. Being that I just had to have more gigs, I had to choose the best player for my needs. That was the Zen Vision M.

Sure, there are third party companies making battery kits for iPods, but you can also buy batteries for the other players as well. It just sucks one will have to have a set of tiny precision tools on hand, and the gumption to tear their MP3 player open to replace it. Even the iPods I am familiar with will have to be taken appart by someone, who at the very least, somewhat knows what they are doing.

I think this rant can be held over the iPods head just as well as the others. At least in the case with the ones I am familiar with.

Then you have companies like SanDisk with their e200 series. A great looking players, user changeable battery and with some minor design flaws but their Achilles heel is their firmware. They are really trying to fill the consumers needs (What is it 3 firmware updates already?) With rumor that they are looking for outside help from Rockbox to create an even better firmware. You have to admire that support they put behind their product. However there are just too many problems with the player for my liking.

I guess, as with everything else in the consumer world, there is going to be the top of the heap, and the bottom of the heap. I am not a fan of iPod, but they are far from being at the bottom. I kind of compare SanDisk to the equivalent of Hondo in the guitar world. Hondo were the cheap beginer guitars for those who weren't 100% sure what they were getting into, or for those with not enough income to afford the higher quality brands. Hondo's were cheap with many flaws, hence you get what you pay for.

The one thing that is going for non-Ipods are that a lot of them are feature packed.

Not only that, but you can use other online music stores instead of iTunes, if so inclined. iPods have DRM which force the consumer to only use iTunes. That goes against the rights of the consumer as far as I am concerned.

Some allow you to move music from PC to PC. Something iPods do not. If your computer dies, there goes all your digital music, if your the average person who doesn't back anything up. That's bad news for the people who suckered themselves into paying a $1 for a lossy compressed song file from iTunes, and own an iPod. There are other advantages of this feature as well.

However I just want a player that works most of the time that will last me at least 3-4 years. Min. 6GB, small, battery replaceable in some form, good battery time, with good communication between player and computer.
Is that so much to ask?

Nope, it sure isn't a lot to ask. Sounds to me like you could use a Zen Micro, more than any version of the iPod that I know of. The battery part being what gives it the edge. Not only that, I have found that both of my Creative players, as well as my iRiver, sound better than the iPods I was able to try out. That is a huge plus for those players over iPod. Of course, good sound is a subjective opinion based on the individual.

Some would say a major selling point for ipod, is iTunes. I would beg to differ, but I am not an average consumer. I don't think paying almost full album price for lossy compressed music files, is a very fair price. Not in the least bit. Add to that the DRM that comes within the files is not consumer friendly

I also don't like the idea of licensing lossy, compressed, DRM infected music with a monthy subscription either. Right now the legit digital download market isn't very appealing, or consumer friendly. iTunes comes bundled with most computers these days, and you can download it for free as well. Still, nothing offered by these sites through any of the MP3 players major players, will sway me one way or the other. I don't use those services.

I would like to add that I have never had a problem with communication between player and computer on any of the three devices I own. At least not one that was the players fault.

The only major problem I have really had, is the Zen Sleek I bought for my wife, froze up and went to crap in only six months. Can't say I would recomend one of those. I am very disappointed to say the least. Major brownie points lost for Creative right there.

If you really want ease of use, I bought my kid a cheap flash drive player from Radio Shack. The neat feature it has, is you can just plug it straight into one of your USB ports and drag and drop your music files right into the player. It doesn't get any easier than that. It would be nice to one day see a device that works the same, yet holds a lot more information.

[Nud3EskimoNinja]

I think another reason that Ipod is on top of the competition is that they release updated versions of the generation before. Which is actually quite smart (others might argue this).

Why create a whole new mp3 player year after year when the current one is already really popular? Just improve it. If IAudio did this with the X5 (I would love that), releasing a similar version year after year, improving with each version, I think it would catch on after a couple of generations.

Ipod uses the former generation of player as a promotional tool for the next generation of Ipod. The IPod name sells itself. Ipod is a household name cuz it pretty much has been the same player for what? 10 years? You say Zen Vision:M or X5 most won't know what they are and they won't come to know what they are cuz the next generation of Creative, iRiver, and IAudio players will (probably) be a totally different player with a whole other name, with a whole new marketing strategy.

[Doggy Daddy]

Originally Posted by ZenChick

Ummm... Wrong thread, hon.

%@#&!!!! dAGNABBIT!

[Raiders757]

That's a good point you have raised, Nud3EskimoNinja. I can see the logic behind that. Although that doesn't make iPods a better player, it does help them sell more to the average consumer. Product familiarity is a good thing to have.

iPod has easily won the promotional war thus far, but I still don't consider that a reason to buy one myself. Nobody should, but sadly the association of the term "iPod" with any brand of MP3 player, has made it hard for the rest of the market to catch up in terms of promotion.

By the way, I never did answer the thread title question.

"Is there really anything better than iPod?"

The answer to that is, yes.

Is "anything" better than iPod? No

I guess it just all boils down to what we all need in an MP3 player, as to which one we think is best. For some, maybe the iPod is the right choice, for others, like myself, it was not.

[Nud3EskimoNinja]

Originally Posted by Raiders757

"Is there really anything better than iPod?"
The answer to that is, yes.
Is "anything" better than iPod? No

I think this thread has made me rethink somethings about the Ipod and other players. I think if someone wants a something to JUST listen to music with a good software communications between the player and software buy an Ipod. If one wants more features and performance get something else.

I don't think I would really buy an Ipod. I like to have control over the little details. I like the IAudio X5 cuz it is so user customizable. The mp3 market still has a ways to go before Ipod will fall from its reigning dominate power though.

Let the revolution begin (again)!!!

[Nud3EskimoNinja]

Well it's clear that there are a few players much better than the Ipod 5 and 5.5 Generation but in my latest search for a compact 6+ Gig player, I'm not so convinced there are many players that can beat the Nano 2G in the COMPACT 6+ GIG class but perhaps some draw even.

The Sansa e200 series with 6 and 8 Gig has the potential, except firmware and background sound problems seem to hold it back.

Creative Zen V plus with 8 Gig fights a pretty good fight. Lots of features but also with so-so battery life, cramped controls and scratchy plastic material.

Iriver e10 6 Gig is nice. Lots of features, good battery and apparently good sound. Large for it's class, mini hardrive memory, must use questionable program if want features like album art and such and features like flash games and built in remote control are limited.

A lot of non-Ipods are packed with features but what's the use of a video player on a 1.5" or less screen? What do you all think?

[Jackonicko]

Q: Is there really anything better than Ipod?

A: For most users, probably not.
For some users, certainly.

As I like to say here, on 'Anything But iPod', please feel entirely free to reject the iPod. Reject iPod by all means, and with my blessing - but do so for the right reasons. Do so with a complete and accurate knowledge of the iPod's capabilities, strengths and weaknesses, and do not do so on the basis of ignorance, disinformation, lies or prejudice.

Why do the anti-iPod zealots insist on mixing valid criticism (Zen has a better screen, can use folders, etc.) with dubious nonsense: Zen has “better sound, better sound processing” – not according to Hi Fi magazine in the UK, nor to numerous audiophile sources. Different sound perhaps….

“There are a few players out there that positively pwns the iPod.”
No there aren’t. There are a few players out there that better suit some users. Even a Gen 3 iPod (the worst ever model) pwns the Zen, for me……

“The Zune could give iPod owners something to think about as well.” Well, to laugh about anyway, so far.

“What you've got is hardware that can easily surpass the iPod on their technical merits.” No you haven’t, you have different hardware that suits different users. Feel free to think that iPods are less suited to a discerning PC-literate audiophile elite if that will salve your battered egos….. but it ain’t right. The sound on the new Nano beats everything I’ve listened to recently, and the iPod UI ‘pwns’ anything else.

“iPods have DRM which force the consumer to only use iTunes.” Not true. AGAIN! Tracks purchased on iTunes have DRM, but the iPod plays DRM-free AAC, ALC and MP3 files as well, and you do not have to acquire these only from iTunes.

“Some allow you to move music from PC to PC. Something iPods do not.” There’s plenty of third party software that allows you to do exactly this with iPods.

“Some would say a major selling point for ipod, is iTunes. I would beg to differ, but I am not an average consumer. I don't think paying almost full album price for lossy compressed music files, is a very fair price.” You don’t get it, do you? ITunes is what you want it to be – and many of us use it simply to organize and manage our music, rip CDs, print cover artwork etc.

[freznow]

My view on the iPod is that they are average. For most people they do what they bought them for, accept their flaws, and don't think about anything else. They ARE a flock of sheep. And that's not always a bad thing. It provides a decent product that people don't have to worry about too much... But there are so many things better than it that with a little research you can find. And it all depends on what the person is looking for in price, quality, size, features, etc.


With the video thing: I think it's nice as an added feature. If you really want videos you get a much larger screen, but it's nice knowing if you want to show off a video of your cat doing the cutest thing, you can with a small, portable device. I think it's nice to have.

[Jackonicko]

Freznow.

That's offensive bol.locks. Many people select the iPod after a rigorous comparison of the alternatives, and to label them all as unthinking sheep who are not concerned with quality is just as wrong, just as stupid, and just as offensive as it would be to suggest that anyone who chooses anything else is a spotty-faced immature teen who just wants lots of buttons, and who wants to embrace a form of 'individual rebellion' that his mates will approve of.

Please. No more of this moronic stereotypeing.

[Almoxil]

Originally Posted by freznow

My view on the iPod is that they are average. For most people they do what they bought them for, accept their flaws, and don't think about anything else. They ARE a flock of sheep. And that's not always a bad thing. It provides a decent product that people don't have to worry about too much... But there are so many things better than it that with a little research you can find. And it all depends on what the person is looking for in price, quality, size, features, etc.


With the video thing: I think it's nice as an added feature. If you really want videos you get a much larger screen, but it's nice knowing if you want to show off a video of your cat doing the cutest thing, you can with a small, portable device. I think it's nice to have.

I agree with you. Think this way: about mobile phones, you could get a Motorola RAZR V3, that is the new toy on the block but has no thrilling features (laughable 0.3MP camera, no MP3 player, slow GUI), or a not so "cool" Sony-Ericsson w810i (2MP camera, integrated media player and a very fast and friendly user interface). The RAZR V3 will appeal to people that don't care about features as long as the phone does the job and is "hip", whereas the w810i will certainly be the choice for those wanting a better feature/cost ratio.