android
Go Back   abi>>forums > MP3 Players By Brand > SanDisk Sansa > Sansa e200 > Sansa e200 Rockbox

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 11-09-2008, 10:24 AM
Photoguy Photoguy is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 16
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WalkGood View Post
@ sputtertoo Well said, I agree.

@ Photoguy, I wonder what they called you at 11? No need to insult another members 11 YO son.
Sorry, I didn't mean to insult, I was just saying that it's possible for any
11 year old to use it, unless they are brain dead.
An 11 year old has the mental capacity to do that.
Although, some may need more help than others.
Reply With Quote

Advertisement [Remove Advertisement]

  #22  
Old 11-13-2008, 09:31 AM
rancid's Avatar
rancid rancid is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK, Somerset
Posts: 111
Default

I havenít posted on this site for a long time..... I can't believe how bitchy it has got.....

I use both OF (Original Firmware) and Rockbox CFW (Custom Firmware) the simplicity/easiest way to use the player is with the OFW and is great to use while jogging, at the gym to listen to a few mp3, wma songs. Where as rockbox is better suited to sitting on a train. Waiting for a bus or on the beach to listen to better encoded music and videos.

If there was a simple menu format then I would use rockbox 100% of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m.rehorst View Post
I bought my 11 YO son an e260 and put rockbox on it so he could watch cartoons and play flacs from my vast collection, but the user interface is a little too complex for him. Is there a version that has had a lot of the extras stripped out?


If the 11yo child does not like the rockbox menu and the way it works then fair enough, just because your 5yo can use it then good for you and your child.

Some people do not have the expertise or time to create new names for the menu or create entirely new menus and this is what m.rehorst was after, not to be slated on the forum.

Quote:
I'd like a main menu that lists music, video, and radio and that's about it. Maybe a bass and treble control or preset EQ. I'm talking about a grossly simplified version of rockbox here...


Anyway what would be wrong with a custom simplified menu anyway? If someone has the skills and time to make one (I donít, by the way) I am sure there would be a lot of people who would use it.

Quote:
Who's idea was it to put the music under a menu selection called "database"?
Quote:


Database Ė assuming that you have not read the user guide.
(Who does these days Ė I still do not know how to programme my 1991 VCR luck the new Freeview HDD-DVD player I recently brought has an intuitive and simple to use menu system)

A database of what, yes we know it is a database of something, it could be a database of rockbox settings, a database of rockbox themes, a database media.

A more descriptive name would be Multimedia Database or Media Database.

While driving my car with my Sansa plugged into my car stereo I asked my girlfriend put another album on, she could not work out how to use it, she did not know what the database was, she was looking for a music menu option. She is not unintelligent; she works in a large secondary school as the School Exams Manager.

I know what you are wanting from the device and I think it is an excellent idea, Good luck and I hope you do carry on visiting these forums and that all the bitching does not put you off from coming back.
__________________
Backups are for Losers !!!
Reply With Quote

  #23  
Old 12-02-2008, 01:17 PM
Llorean Llorean is offline
Rockbox Developer
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 397
Default

The name "database" makes perfect sense to the target audience, as that's what it is. It's a music player, so it databases the supported formats. If you have a program for managing and keeping track of all the gadgets you own, and it has a "database" option, you assume it's a database of the primary thing that's for, not a database of configuration files.

Seriously, if that's so confusing, do you think we should also rename "Resume playback" to "Resume music playback" or "Resume media playback" because it's the exact same situation there.

The strings are kept short wherever possible because with large fonts it makes it less likely they'll need to scroll long, and most of us think it's incredibly obvious that "Database" refers to the primary function of the player since it's in the main menu.

Not to mention the fact that anyone who can work a computer should be able to manage the "Files" browser. Are you telling me your reasonably intelligent girlfriend was unable to make the connection that "audio files" are "files" and browse to your music there?
Reply With Quote

  #24  
Old 12-02-2008, 07:18 PM
TBOL3 TBOL3 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 58
Default

I'd like to throw in my 2 cents. 1. The default WPS says current song: And under it, Next Song: When 1/2 of the time, I'm not listening to music, but a podcast or audiobook. 2. I do agree, database is fairly simple. And even a child should know what it is. If you were to just call it 'music', why not give that title to the file tree? I use that for music 100% more then the database. Anyway, the idea of making a simpler theme appeals to me. I have low vision, and the current theme I'm using can be a bit hard on my eyes. But I don't know what the 1+1 of rockbox and WPS is, so if any of you are willing to point me in the right direction (for stuff like what type of files to use, and where to put them, and the type of scripts to make), I'll throw one together.
Reply With Quote

  #25  
Old 12-03-2008, 06:27 AM
Daveybaby Daveybaby is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 106
Default

I can see a definite benefit in making the menu structure as easily customisable as the WPS is, i.e. a textfile defining the menus and their functions which is loaded at runtime, rather than being hardcoded.

In fact, in some systems without the resource constraints that rockbox has to operate under, that would often be considered the 'best' way to do it in the first place (both for ease of use of the users and the devs). Not sure whether adding code to parse a menu definition file would adversely affect rockbox performance though... concievably it only has to run once at startup and could then be discarded kind of like a plugin. Also, not familiar enough with the codebase to know whether it's sufficiently flexible to implement a generic menu system or not.

Any of the devs care to comment?
Reply With Quote

  #26  
Old 12-03-2008, 07:12 AM
rancid's Avatar
rancid rancid is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK, Somerset
Posts: 111
Default

Daveybaby, that is the most useful suggestion I have seen regarding the menu items.

To change the menu name you could create a new Language File:

Does anyone else know how to change the main menu in rockbox without getting into a big argument?

In the mean time, here is a guide on rockbox website:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/LangFiles
__________________
Backups are for Losers !!!
Reply With Quote

  #27  
Old 12-03-2008, 01:47 PM
Llorean Llorean is offline
Rockbox Developer
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 397
Default

Rancid:
You can change the menu for yourself just by editing the source. Nobody's arguing against you making personal changes, or distributing a modified build with a changed menu. The argument is against the idea of changing the official menu. I even offered suggestions toward the idea of him doing it for himself, and tried to offer some tips to which he could've asked further questions, I think clearly showing my intent was not to prevent him from having a personalized menu.

Daveybaby:
As for making it dynamic: There would be a performance hit if it were customizable like themes, because you'd need the ability to load a new menu layout when new themes are loaded with different menus. Rockbox is designed so that you only have to reboot when it's absolutely necessary, having a feature that required rebooting would be "worse" than having a feature that consumed more RAM, generally speaking.

How would having a customizable menu make things "easier" on the devs, given the constraints of the system? I'm not sure I understand that part of your statements? Surely people messing up their menu definitions would increase our support load for no practical gain to us (given that we already like our existing method of having a hard-coded menu)?
Reply With Quote

  #28  
Old 12-03-2008, 02:28 PM
ignatiusreilly ignatiusreilly is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 34
Default

I think customizable menus is a great idea.

Added support would be needed for the customizing feature, but an option would probably be needed to revert back to the default menu in case people mess it up too much.

I would like to see a more graphical snazzier menu. People like snazzy menus, like they get with most proprietary players. I think a 'prettier' gui would increase the popularity of rockbox. I use Saagar's Bigart theme and my WPS is snazzier in my opinon than any proprietary one I've seen, but the menu remains rather... blah.

The thing I like the most about rockbox is how customizable it is. Just about the only thing you can't customize (without changing the source) is the menu. It's a detriment to the system, and that's why these threads keep coming up.
Reply With Quote

  #29  
Old 12-03-2008, 02:55 PM
Llorean Llorean is offline
Rockbox Developer
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 397
Default

And NOBODY is stopping the people who actually want it from creating custom builds with customizable menus.

You see a half dozen custom builds out there for e200s alone. I don't see anyone asking them again and again why they don't have customizable menus, but people seem to blame us for not wanting it in *our* build.
Reply With Quote

  #30  
Old 12-03-2008, 05:47 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
Rockbox Developer / Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,646
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignatiusreilly View Post
I would like to see a more graphical snazzier menu. People like snazzy menus, like they get with most proprietary players. I think a 'prettier' gui would increase the popularity of rockbox. I use Saagar's Bigart theme and my WPS is snazzier in my opinon than any proprietary one I've seen, but the menu remains rather... blah.
Theres been some thought about having menu transition effects or something similar, but nothing substantial. I agree it would be a cool feature to have.
Reply With Quote

  #31  
Old 12-03-2008, 06:34 PM
Daveybaby Daveybaby is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 106
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Llorean View Post
As for making it dynamic: There would be a performance hit if it were customizable like themes, because you'd need the ability to load a new menu layout when new themes are loaded with different menus.
Wasnt suggesting having dynamically loaded menus, just load once at boot.

Quote:
How would having a customizable menu make things "easier" on the devs, given the constraints of the system?
I meant for some systems without such constraints this is a common approach. On large systems compile time can becomes more of a constraint than execution speed or memory use, so UI development becomes much quicker & easier (since its something you often have to tweak a lot) if you can do so without recompiling the binary every time. Not an issue for rockbox, but it can still be good practice to separate executive and UI.

Anyhoo, one advantage for the devs is that you wouldnt have to deal with threads like this one - people would just download a menu structure like they do with wps & themes, or make their own if they really need to. Different people have different needs from an mp3 player - the very existence of rockbox is due to this fact.
Quote:
Surely people messing up their menu definitions would increase our support load for no practical gain to us (given that we already like our existing method of having a hard-coded menu)?
I dunno if that would be the case - arent the 'modding' people generally different from the 'coding' people? You'd probably get an initial group of menu modders, a few of whom would stick around and offer advice to n00bs etc. This generally seems to be the pattern with most of the projects that i've been involved with.

Last edited by Daveybaby; 12-04-2008 at 04:50 AM.
Reply With Quote

  #32  
Old 12-03-2008, 06:37 PM
recrapit recrapit is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45
Default

"WE are the Borg. Resistance is futile"
Sorry, all of the "we" and "us" and "them" talk was giving me Star Trek flashbacks. But anyways..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Llorean View Post
...blame us for not wanting it in *our* build.
I'm assuming "us" is in reference to anyone and everyone who have contributed to RB coding. Or, perhaps to those who have contributed the most to the coding? If indeed so, I'm surprised that everyone is of the same mind. And--if "*our* build" refers to the original/unmodified RB build--I'm surprised by the finality of the design. I always thought RB was a constantly evolving creature. The change in keymapping comes to mind.
Reply With Quote

  #33  
Old 12-03-2008, 06:53 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
Rockbox Developer / Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,646
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by recrapit View Post
I'm assuming "us" is in reference to anyone and everyone who have contributed to RB coding. Or, perhaps to those who have contributed the most to the coding?
Well, everyone with SVN access, since they're the ones who can decide what goes into SVN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by recrapit View Post
If indeed so, I'm surprised that everyone is of the same mind.
Its possible someone disagrees, but I don't recall anyone ever saying so. You're welcome to dig through the mailing list archives and see for yourself though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by recrapit View Post
And--if "*our* build" refers to the original/unmodified RB build--I'm surprised by the finality of the design. I always thought RB was a constantly evolving creature. The change in keymapping comes to mind.
It is always evolving, but we still regularly reject patches and features. Theres pretty good agreement about what belongs and what does not belong in rockbox.
Reply With Quote

  #34  
Old 12-03-2008, 07:00 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
Rockbox Developer / Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,646
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveybaby View Post

Anyhoo, one advantage for the devs is that you wouldnt have to deal with threads like this one - people would just download a menu structure like they do with wps & themes, or make their own if they really need to.
We already don't have to deal with threads like this! Llorean and I try to though in order to find new developers, see what ideas people are interested in, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveybaby View Post
Different people have different needs from an mp3 player - the very existence of rockbox is due to this fact.
I think its been pointed out 5 or 6 times at least in this thread, but you're already welcome to modify the menus in rockbox. Theres even people who (kugel, cpchan, etc).

Feel free to do this! We don't mind. Really!
Reply With Quote

  #35  
Old 12-03-2008, 07:46 PM
Llorean Llorean is offline
Rockbox Developer
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 397
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveybaby View Post
I meant for some systems without such constraints this is a common approach. On large systems compile time can becomes more of a constraint than execution speed or memory use, so UI development becomes much quicker & easier (since its something you often have to tweak a lot) if you can do so without recompiling the binary every time. Not an issue for rockbox, but it can still be good practice to separate executive and UI.
Remember, the idea for these systems is not to be a general-purpose OS, or even a "robust" OS, but to be an MP3 player. The UI layer is separate to an extent (there's an 'apps' and a 'firmware' division) which should make it fairly easy for someone compiling their own build to modify it, but that's a far stretch from creating code to parse and use a menu file saved to disk. And as I said, rebooting would be unwanted, especially for something as trivial as a theme change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveybaby View Post
Anyhoo, one advantage for the devs is that you wouldnt have to deal with threads like this one
We don't have to deal with threads like this one. We can just ignore them. And even if the menus are customizable, we'd still get people who assumed they weren't up front and requested changes. People don't read the documentation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveybaby View Post
Different people have different needs from an mp3 player - the very existence of rockbox is due to this fact.
It's also due to the fact of people deciding to take action based on their needs, and actually work on it. A parallel to your suggestion is if we just went to the Original Firmware provider's forums and posted saying "You guys should do this" then complained at them when they didn't again, and again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveybaby View Post
I dunno if that would be the case - arent the 'modding' people generally different from the 'coding' people? You'd probably get an initial group of menu modders, a few of whom would stick around and offer advice to n00bs etc. This generally seems to be the pattern with most of the projects that i've been involved with.
The 'modding' people, 95% of the time, disappear after creating their themes. We've got many, many themes around that have been 'abandoned' by their original creators. And it's excessively rare that theme creators come to the Rockbox forum and explain basics about how to load, modify, repair, or deal with buggy themes. I find it very doubtful that people who create custom menus will come to our forums and provide technical support for other people who wish to do so, since there's no tradition of them doing this in the past in any meaningful quantity over any meaningful time period.

Sure, when we get a new feature, people are excited about it for a while. But after the shine has worn off, that's it. Their custom menu files will be around forever. The average custom menu author will be around for a few months.

And when a new menu item appears, it won't be in the custom menus, so someone will be up saying "Why doesn't feature Y show up in my menus, the change log says you added it in three builds ago!" and so on.

I find it very, very likely that custom menus will not only increase our support load, but will actually provide an increased level of difficulty for many people using it since it will always be necessary to modify every custom menu file any time a new feature is added so that it may be assigned a position.
Reply With Quote

  #36  
Old 12-03-2008, 07:55 PM
TBOL3 TBOL3 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 58
Default

I believe that the reason why nobody knows about any simpler themes, is because they are just 'a version of rockbox, with the added wps and background an font file'. Not to mention, when the OP asked for one such theme, he was kindly shown the door. Not to mention, about half of the people who want an easy theme, don't know enough about how to set it up. I propose that we make a fork, yes a fork (well maybe more of a branch), of rockbox. We give it a whole new title, and make it easy to install (about as complex as the rockbox utility, if they can't figure that out, then I wonder how they are able to use a DAP in the first place). The idea is to A. Make it simple, for the lame man (I don not mean MS's lame man, but I mean more like ubuntu is linux for the lame man, still powerful, but really easy to use). And B. Eye candy (a limited amount, I mean, these aren't very good processes were dealing with here). I believe this will not only make rockbox (or whatever will be calling it) more popular, but it will also help show manufacturers that the rockbox base is viable for the common person. And we may even get one lone manufacturer to make a single rockbox based player (hay, I can dream). I am willing to do a large portion of the work. But I honestly know ditaly skout about the source code, and still very little about how the themes are designed (well, the wps anyway, I have a few ideas about the background). So, what do you guys think? Am I off my rocker? Or am I the next Jobs? Or do I actually have a valid idea going?
Reply With Quote

  #37  
Old 12-03-2008, 07:56 PM
TBOL3 TBOL3 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 58
Default

Sorry about the formating of that last post. I guess that it needed javascript to actually put in my enters.
Reply With Quote

  #38  
Old 12-03-2008, 08:00 PM
Llorean Llorean is offline
Rockbox Developer
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 397
Default

TBOL3: It seems you've missed a point (or several). he wasn't "shown the door" for asking for a theme. Themes can't modify the menus, and he wanted different menu text.

He was told how he could modify the menus for his own use. He was also told why Rockbox has the names it does for a certain menu item he felt was improperly named.
Reply With Quote

  #39  
Old 12-03-2008, 08:16 PM
TBOL3 TBOL3 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 58
Default

I'm sorry for not communicating myself properly. Yes, you are right, he was asking about a new menu, which a new theme can't get him. But it looks like a new languige pack could. And I know that almost all of you were kind, but there were a few that were not. And most of you said it's stupid (and I actually agree with you one your example. Database is not music, music is music, and a database is a database).

I just think their is a gap between the devs, and the users. And I was hoping to make a project that is geared more towards making rockbox 'easy', rather then all of the latest new features (but still with a ton of them). Just imagin it as a sort of linux distro. I want to start a new one, independent from rockbox. I just don't know where to begin (yet, give me a week, and I will probibily have begun, and yes, you are correct to be scepticle of me).
Reply With Quote

  #40  
Old 12-03-2008, 08:53 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
Rockbox Developer / Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,646
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBOL3 View Post
I want to start a new one, independent from rockbox. I just don't know where to begin (yet, give me a week, and I will probibily have begun, and yes, you are correct to be scepticle of me).
Heres a good place to begin:

http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/vie...velopmentGuide
Reply With Quote

Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:43 PM.