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  #1  
Old 11-13-2012, 09:23 AM
Yamashiita Ren Yamashiita Ren is offline
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Default Rockbox - Hearing Loss Prevention

Hello guys. I have some sad news.
Due to an error from me, ~10 days ago, I have listened the rockboxed R0 for few seconds at +0dB sound lvl.
The result is an ear trauma. I don't know if it will cure (I have seen the specialized doctor and he thinks so) but I have great hopes about that.
I will see the doctor again next monday.
The fact is that after this experience, I have decided that I will never use the rockboxed R0 again nor the R0 (Samsung Galaxy S already ordered, you see the point). It have some great features but it lacks the most important features about preventing hearing loss.
So, if I'm reporting, it is only because I hope that in the future you will try to enhance the security of Rockbox for the ears.
Keep the good work and take care of your ears !
I hope I will be able to enjoy music again and soon enough
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  #2  
Old 11-13-2012, 09:42 AM
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lebellium lebellium is offline
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Sorry to hear about that

I took the opportunity to debate the topic with the Rockbox devs.
You can follow it here: http://www.rockbox.org/irc/log-20121113
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Last edited by lebellium; 11-13-2012 at 10:08 AM.
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  #3  
Old 11-13-2012, 11:28 AM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamashiita Ren View Post
The fact is that after this experience, I have decided that I will never use the rockboxed R0 again nor the R0 (Samsung Galaxy S already ordered, you see the point). It have some great features but it lacks the most important features about preventing hearing loss.
There is actually volume limiting in rockbox. The manual explains how to implement it with the EQ:

http://download.rockbox.org/daily/ma...l#x9-1110006.8


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamashiita Ren View Post
So, if I'm reporting, it is only because I hope that in the future you will try to enhance the security of Rockbox for the ears.
Unfortunately, as it is physically impossible to determine the acoustic pressure in software, a volume limiting option is as much as can be done in firmware.
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  #4  
Old 11-13-2012, 12:11 PM
Yamashiita Ren Yamashiita Ren is offline
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Yes, ears safety is quite a difficult task to achieve with such powerful devices.
Haven't really the courage to fully understand your link (I'm French and still quite shocked as my recovery is still uncertain) but as you explained it, it seems that it is a volume limiter.

The problem is that I am the one who improved the volume to +0dB (don't know if it was the right thing to do). Why ? Because I usually listen the R0 in my car and I never have really understood how to have the best audio quality in my car ~~ So I usually use more the player amp than the car radio amp ...
Few days after the car episode, I wanted to listen music and you know the end of the story ...

Enough with my life. My idea is that the YP-Q3 have a nice feature (which have certainly saved my ears in the last year).
The YP-Q3 have a volume scale from 0 to 30. If my memory is alright, after going to sleep mode (so after not using it for like 5-15 minutes) the volume go to 15 on the scale if it was over 15 before going in sleep mode.
It's really a good feature and I really encourage you to introduce this feature in Rockbox. Another good idea can be to allow the user to choose at which volume he wants the player to start in such cases.

ps :
Have read the logs and have found that my case isn't fully understand by everyone.
I hope my post will help them to understand.
Feel free to ask questions. I'm not here to tell "It's your fault" because I'm the one who flashed Rockbox but I want to help you to improve the firmware and prevent such "bad experiences".

edit :
I have listened the first seconds of this podcast :http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Sebas..._Ibiza_199.m4a with the R0 and an ATH-SJ 55 headphone.
During the week before the audio disease I was sick and before being sick, I went to a nightclub (unprotected).
Certainly my ears suffered in the nightclub, didn't recovered during the week because I was sick and suffered a lot during the few seconds of podcast at 0dB.
Usually, I listen music at -30dB. As you might know it, -30dB => 0dB is 8 times louder for the ears ... My ears are quite sensitive so you may imagine the shock ...

Last edited by Yamashiita Ren; 11-13-2012 at 03:30 PM.
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  #5  
Old 11-13-2012, 02:42 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamashiita Ren View Post
Enough with my life. My idea is that the YP-Q3 have a nice feature (which have certainly saved my ears in the last year).
The YP-Q3 have a volume scale from 0 to 30. If my memory is alright, after going to sleep mode (so after not using it for like 5-15 minutes) the volume go to 15 on the scale if it was over 15 before going in sleep mode.
So basically, an option to not write back volume levels if the player idle powers off. I'm not sure I really like that idea because its fairly complicated and I think most users won't really use it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamashiita Ren View Post
Usually, I listen music at -30dB. As you might know it, -30dB => 0dB is 8 times more sound pressure ... My ears are quite sensitive so you may imagine the shock ...
Its actually 31 times IIUC.

But I think the real solution here is to get a player with a line out if you want to drive a line in jack. That way you won't have to turn up the volume dangerously high.
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  #6  
Old 11-13-2012, 03:51 PM
Yamashiita Ren Yamashiita Ren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saratoga View Post
So basically, an option to not write back volume levels if the player idle powers off. I'm not sure I really like that idea because its fairly complicated and I think most users won't really use it.
Yes ! I let you think about that ...
The joke here, is that when I started using linux, I always wondered how to store the alsa conf upon the reboot. Today, I want exactly the opposite ~~



Quote:
Its actually 31 times IIUC
Sorry, my mistake ... Is 8 times louder right ?

Quote:
But I think the real solution here is to get a player with a line out if you want to drive a line in jack. That way you won't have to turn up the volume dangerously high.
Sounds to be the solution but I don't really understand what you are talking about.
I think I will make a topic about this specific case ...
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  #7  
Old 11-13-2012, 07:36 PM
VanniX VanniX is offline
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@Yamashiita Ren:
You can limit output volume by changing the alsa master volume in Linux. You can decrease the percentage in rockbox_loader.sh.
I set it to 90, because it's the best ratio that allows higher quality in a typical sinusoidal output (tested with my oscilloscope). However you can set it as you want. Remember that over 97% sine waves are flattened, under 80% are a bit biased.

For the car radio you should check alsamixer is you want to use line out instead of front/headphone. The R0 output is only a "limited line out".
Tomorrow i can try in console if you want ;-)

EDIT:
PS: In LRv4.5C9 is enabled a simple "power on counter" that i use for battery benchmark and dis/charging time. It use /tmp dir (ram) and another dir autogenerated on microSD. In Final release this utility will be removed (disabled).

Last edited by VanniX; 11-13-2012 at 07:45 PM.
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  #8  
Old 11-14-2012, 02:26 PM
Lorenz092 Lorenz092 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanniX View Post
@Yamashiita Ren:
You can limit output volume by changing the alsa master volume in Linux. You can decrease the percentage in rockbox_loader.sh.
I set it to 90, because it's the best ratio that allows higher quality in a typical sinusoidal output (tested with my oscilloscope). However you can set it as you want. Remember that over 97% sine waves are flattened, under 80% are a bit biased.

For the car radio you should check alsamixer is you want to use line out instead of front/headphone. The R0 output is only a "limited line out".
Tomorrow i can try in console if you want ;-)
Again, NO! Alsamixer doesn't do anything once rockbox has started
Please have a look at rockbox code: it manages volumes DIRECTLY to as3543 codec, alsamixer has no role in this...
Indeed I was wondering why keeping all the volumes in the startup script, you should have a look also to the newest script contained in rockbox's sources...
EDIT: if it does there is something strange

Anyways yes a bad episode, it happened me too but nothing serious also because I don't have quality headphones ^^

Ideas

A solution to this problem could be eventually the setting to restore, at every startup, a predefined volume.
Or indeed, I have an old Sony amplifier that has a protector (I think it senses the flowing current in the speakers).
Of course this is not feasible because of the missing hardware but a possible way of solving is that volume isn't set immediately but after a certain delay.
If, for example, I keep pressed volume up, okay, I can see on the screen the value raising but in the meantime the actual volume changes slowly in little steps...
This sounds easy to say and difficult to implement indeed. Should and must have a setting for this. Lowering the volume has no limits (no need and safety)
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Last edited by Lorenz092; 11-14-2012 at 02:44 PM.
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  #9  
Old 11-14-2012, 04:11 PM
VanniX VanniX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenz092 View Post
Again, NO! Alsamixer doesn't do anything once rockbox has started
Please have a look at rockbox code: it manages volumes DIRECTLY to as3543 codec, alsamixer has no role in this...
Indeed I was wondering why keeping all the volumes in the startup script, you should have a look also to the newest script contained in rockbox's sources...
EDIT: if it does there is something strange
Please, try and edit your message. Thank you. XD
Probably the alsa server has priority over rockbox deamon, so if you increase alsa volume the output volume is higher, if you decrease it is lower.
Try to play a song and then change volume in alsamixer, with console.
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  #10  
Old 11-15-2012, 08:13 AM
Yamashiita Ren Yamashiita Ren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenz092 View Post
Anyways yes a bad episode, it happened me too but nothing serious also because I don't have quality headphones ^^
I think that in my case, it's more a problem of ears weakness than headphones power.
However, my worst fear is to keep the tinnitus forever. Today, nothing else matter.


About your ideas,

Quote:
Of course this is not feasible because of the missing hardware but a possible way of solving is that volume isn't set immediately but after a certain delay.
If, for example, I keep pressed volume up, okay, I can see on the screen the value raising but in the meantime the actual volume changes slowly in little steps...
This sounds easy to say and difficult to implement indeed. Should and must have a setting for this. Lowering the volume has no limits (no need and safety)
That's a good idea but I think that the feedback in the ears and on the screen should be the same.
I've already had the problem of sound increasing while the player is in my pocket unlocked but always understood that the volume was increasing before it was too late.


Quote:
A solution to this problem could be eventually the setting to restore, at every startup, a predefined volume.
This is the default setting (but not configurable) in OF (at least the OF of french YP-Q3) if volume is over 15 (on a 0-30 scale) and I think that it have to be the same in Rockbox.

ps : I'm not mad at you. My English isn't just good enough to explain you my feelings about this subject without being cold ^^'
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  #11  
Old 11-15-2012, 11:19 AM
Lorenz092 Lorenz092 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamashiita Ren View Post
ps : I'm not mad at you. My English isn't just good enough to explain you my feelings about this subject without being cold ^^'
Don't worry. I can understand, you're not being offensive/angry at all!
And yes the feature of the 15 level is present in R0 OF too. This is easy to code and at this point should be definitely implemented.
A setting like:
Restore Volume on startup -> Disabled
<values> either percentage or dB
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  #12  
Old 11-15-2012, 11:38 AM
skip252 skip252 is offline
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I hope that's for the R0 only. Those of us that know how to use a volume control don't need to be nannied or limited by a software.
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  #13  
Old 11-15-2012, 12:17 PM
Yamashiita Ren Yamashiita Ren is offline
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But some guys, not as powerful and godlike as you, may benefit from a configurable feature like this one.
In my opinion, if this feature comes to Rockbox. It should be enabled by default. Eventually, any expert user like you will certainly find the toggle to deactivate it.

Pride have nothing to do with hearing diseases prevention.
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:31 PM
skip252 skip252 is offline
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That's the same nanny state thinking that has some players permanently crippled. See Sony in the EU.

I figured out how to protect my hearing long ago. Because you can't figure out how to turn down the volume doesn't mean someone needs to do it for everyone else.
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:49 PM
Yamashiita Ren Yamashiita Ren is offline
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Can you talk with Sony ? I don't know for you but me, I can't.
Can you talk with RB devs ? Yes.

About hearing. I'm impressed that you never do errors or mistakes. I want to be like you, really !

But enough sweet talking. I don't really see how a feature like this one can annoy you ...
Rockbox is full of features and this is the reason why I started using it (and I now regret it). What is the problem with safety features ?

Last edited by Yamashiita Ren; 11-15-2012 at 12:58 PM.
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  #16  
Old 11-15-2012, 02:09 PM
Lorenz092 Lorenz092 is offline
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Please guys, this is the rockbox post for R0 porting, not to discuss new features. (are welcome, but here I guess are likely to be lost these ideas...)
And please, skip252, don't open useless flames
A new feature must be likely good for who want to use it, and must be harmless for who don't. As Yamashiita Ren says, there is no point in not adding such a feature.
I suggest to either open a ticket for a new feature or a new post in rockbox forum since this forum is just for this specific port and not much else!

(I'm in favor to add this feature, could be useful)

Quote:
I hope that's for the R0 only. Those of us that know how to use a volume control don't need to be nannied or limited by a software.
Kinda egoistic. Please avoid these non-constructive sentences.

With this said, I hope no misunderstanding

EDIT: we could add 2 "limits" -> max volume limit and automatic reset at startup if volume is too high. It happened me too something like that (fm transmitter in car, high volume in R0)...I could also add them but I don't have much time in this period
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:30 PM
Yamashiita Ren Yamashiita Ren is offline
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Flames were a trap for me in French boards, now I know that they are in English too.

However, I'm glad to see that my ideas are welcomed Lorenz092. If you dare to consider them, I'm happy.
No need to overbook yourself
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  #18  
Old 11-15-2012, 03:59 PM
skip252 skip252 is offline
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If you prefer lebellium can move this to an appropriate thread of it's own. I could do it but I prefer not to be seen as attempting to intimidate or suppress discussion. Until then you'll be hearing what I think of this here.

Trying to tell somewhere where to post in this forum or characterize their statements the way you have is what's non productive . I expressed an opinion. Anyone is free to do that in any subforum that interests them in this forum. Considering I've been using Rockbox for over 5 years, I'm damn interested. If that's flaming then be prepared for more.

There's also nothing egoistic about stating that I know enough to turn down the volume enough not to damage my hearing. If others were as aware how to protect themselves this wouldn't need to be posted anywhere.

I'll stop posting here if you clarify if this idiocy is proposed for all targets or just the R0. And yes, it's my opinion that any safety proposal that requires everyone be encumbered with steel toe shoes because a thoughtless person stubbed his toe, is idiocy. Your "harmless", isn't, if it requires the thoughtful be lumped with those that can't be arsed to think for themselves.

Don't attempt to lecture me about Rockbox and it's benefits or hazards. I've had it installed on one player or another since 2008. I started using it because it freed me to use a player the way I preferred. That required I actually put some thought into what I wanted and how to accomplish my goals. Part of that was actually doing the research to find what a safe listening level was. Now I make sure whenever I turn on a player the player is at that level or below.

I never said I haven't made a mistake in controlling the volume on one of my DAPs. I said I figured out how to protect my hearing. I went to the Rockbox forum and searched "volume limit". That brought me to this thread http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,16878.0.html that showed me how to have a player always start at a preset volume. Using a fixed.cfg file with a volume setting makes it simple. If I choose to do that.

To use that or not is my choice and should remain my choice in my opinion. I came out of diapers a long time ago. I don't need someone deciding for me with a default setting what volume is appropriate for me.

Life has taught me that the primary safety feature in any situation is to use your head for more than just a hatrack. They ignored that and got ear blasted. Your assumption is that everyone else will, so now they need someone to protect them from themselves.
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  #19  
Old 11-15-2012, 04:26 PM
Predelnik Predelnik is offline
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Well at first, honestly speaking I don't see how much is volume reset option which is off by default would affect anyone in a bad way (rockbox have a 1000 features that I never use I guess). And it could even help people with normal ears who just changing volume a lot for different situations (like it constantly stays low, but sometime should be raised).

And volume limiting is not the only issue here, skip252, 'cause, as I understand it the problem is that sometimes high volume still should be used on some output devices.

Doing this option turned on by default though would be not very good move cause most of the users don't need it and it could make them to write huge posts containing a lot of flame
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  #20  
Old 11-15-2012, 05:16 PM
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My Onkyo amplifier has a setting where the volume can be reset at a predefined level when turned on. I have it at 35. Sometimes I listen to music at 50 and when I've finished (or the wife comes home ) I might turn it off without lowering the volume first. If I didn't have this setting, on next power up the music or telly would be far too loud perhaps damaging the speakers or waking up the littleun . It's easy to transpose the idea to a DAP. You wouldn't get the "crippling effect" mentioned above because if you want to push to 0dB you can (and cripple your ears instead). At least you know that that the next time you turn on the player you wont be (unpleasantly) surprised. You could set the volume at your convenience and turn up (or down) as you wish.
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