Cowon J3 or Sansa Clip+?

[Enigmatic]

Originally Posted by BRD4

I'll be mostly listening to FLAC, if I buy the Sansa, I think I need to buy SD card too. About the budget, of course Sansa is more budget-friendly but as I stated earlier, my priority is the sound quality and clarity. I'm not going to use it for working out and watching the video(the screen would be too small for videos I guess). If the battery life is not short, it's OK.

Since you will be listening to mostly FLACs, if you do choose the Clip+, you may want to rockbox it. The Clip+’s battery life, playing FLACs and using SanDisk’s firmware, is said to be terrible. http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SansaRuntime#Results.

[CrowdAds]

[BRD4]

@Enigmatic: And which one would you recommend regardless of the battery life?

[Enigmatic]

Originally Posted by BRD4

And which one would you recommend regardless of the battery life?

They both appear to be worthy candidates. I cannot recommend one over the other. That is your decision. Sorry.

[BRD4]

@Enigmatic: Thanks for your help.
Thanks everyone for your comments.
Since I haven't decided yet, any other comments are welcomed.

[The DarkSide]

For the battery life alone I'd go J3. Plus, you never know when you might feel like watching a video,...stranger things have happened,...

[BRD4]

Hi everyone
Today I tried to listen to some of my songs with my friend's Clip+.
I faced a problem: I can't play some of my .flac songs on Clip+. Is it beacause of their high bitrates?(like 96KHz/24bits)
If Clip+ can't play these songs, is J3(or any other player) capable of playing them?
Thanks
P.S. I didn't have a problem playing .flac or .wav 44.1KHz/16bits songs.

[meanwhile]

Originally Posted by BRD4

Hi everyone
Today I tried to listen to some of my songs with my friend's Clip+.
I faced a problem: I can't play some of my .flac songs on Clip+. Is it beacause of their high bitrates?(like 96KHz/24bits)
If Clip+ can't play these songs, is J3(or any other player) capable of playing them?
Thanks
P.S. I didn't have a problem playing .flac or .wav 44.1KHz/16bits songs.

24 bit recordings are troublesome to the J3 also:

http://www.anythingbutipod.com/forum...ad.php?t=58630

- this might have been fixed in a firmware update since then, but I doubt it, as 24 bit recordings are widely considered a con by audio engineers.

In your shoes I'd probably convert anything you want to listen on a PMP into a 320 mp3 or equivalent quality aac or ogg/vorbis (in blind listening tests people can't tell the difference between these and FLAC, and they take less space.)

[dfkt]

No player of any reputable brand supports 24/96.

[BRD4]

I forgot to mention that I didn't have any problem with 96/16 songs either.
Do you know if Clip+ or J3 can play 48/16 or 48/24 songs?
One more question: What is(are) Clip+/J3's advantage(s) over my laptop(I mean, listening to music with my laptop) except their portability?
@meanwhile: The thought of converting my FLAC files to MP3 320 makes me sad
. I have to mention that there is a huge difference between high bitrate FLAC(DVD-A rip,...) and MP3, AAC,...
But I guess I can convert my FLAC songs to 44.1/16 FLAC, right?

[Enigmatic]

Originally Posted by BRD4

I have to mention that there is a huge difference between high bitrate FLAC(DVD-A rip,...) and MP3, AAC,...

These topics have been discussed on these forums. You may want to do a search.

[meanwhile]

@meanwhile: The thought of converting my FLAC files to MP3 320 makes me sad
. I have to mention that there is a huge difference between high bitrate FLAC(DVD-A rip,...) and MP3, AAC,...

According to properly conducted blind listening tests, very few people can tell the difference between 320 mp3 and FLAC. (And those who can have to concentrate on looking for minor giveaway details rather than listening to the music.)

As for those 24 bit recordings people are buying... a lot of them come from masters recorded on old analog tech that has an effective 14 to 15 bit depth.

Also my memory of that thread I linked for you is that were problems with doing a FLAC to FLAC conversion of 24 bit material. It may have been the particular software used. I'd suggest reading the thread.

Finally, the biggest bang for the buck is usually from headphones/iems. Don't neglect these - budget for them first.

Originally Posted by dfkt

the Clip can drive the 300 Ohm/103dB (1Vrms) Sennheiser HD650 somewhat better than the 60 Ohm/101dB/mW Koss KSC 75, due to (presumable) impedance-matching.

Or possibly because Sennheiser are more accurate and honest the efficiency of the high-end and likely-to-be-tested 650 than Koss are about the 75...

I though impedance matching was pretty much a non-concern with modern amps? Plus for it to work here, then surely the Clip's impedance would have to be closer to 300 Ohms than 60, while its measured impedance is one ohm or less??? But electronics is far from my strong suit, so I might be talking complete nonsense.

[dfkt]

You notice the Clip switching 'gears' when plugging in phones of wildly different impedances - with some closer matched phones one after another you get sound instantly, with differing phones it takes a second or two until the audio output is enabled. This isn't the (low) output impedance of the Clip, this is how it reacts to the impedance of the attached phones, adjusting its output power accordingly.

On non-impedance-matching sources the difference between the HD650 and the KSC75 in impedance and sensitivity seems legit enough according to their specs - but yeah, the KSC75 sure aren't the most narrow-specced phones ever made.

[BRD4]

@Meanwhile:Of course it depends on the music too, but I have a CD rip(FLAC) of an album(not a remaster of an old one) and a DVD-A rip(FLAC) of the same album and the difference is noticable.I tested several songs with both Clip+ and my laptop. I prefer my laptop's SQ to Clip+. If J3's sound is pretty much the same as Clip+, I'm not sure I'm going to buy a player at all, since I mostly listen to music at home; Any idea?

[Marvin the Martian]

Originally Posted by BRD4

@Meanwhile:Of course it depends on the music too, but I have a CD rip(FLAC) of an album(not a remaster of an old one) and a DVD-A rip(FLAC) of the same album and the difference is noticable.I tested several songs with both Clip+ and my laptop. I prefer my laptop's SQ to Clip+. If J3's sound is pretty much the same as Clip+, I'm not sure I'm going to buy a player at all, since I mostly listen to music at home; Any idea?

Did you volume-match when you compared your laptop sound to the Clip+?

[Enigmatic]

Originally Posted by BRD4

Of course it depends on the music too, but I have a CD rip(FLAC) of an album(not a remaster of an old one) and a DVD-A rip(FLAC) of the same album and the difference is noticable.I tested several songs with both Clip+ and my laptop. I prefer my laptop's SQ to Clip+. If J3's sound is pretty much the same as Clip+, I'm not sure I'm going to buy a player at all, since I mostly listen to music at home; Any idea?

The recording sessions and production techniques used for the DVD-A might be very different from that used on the CD even though they are ostensibly the same album. To come to any definitive conclusions, one must conduct an extensive series of extremely rigorous listening tests.

http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/index...eId=4&blogId=1,
http://drewdaniels.com/audible.pdf.

[BRD4]

@Marvin the Martian: Yes. Actually, the SQ of Clip+ was the same as my laptop. But, I slightly prefer my laptop over Clip+.
Also, I would alternate between the two every 20 seconds to compare.

[meanwhile]

Originally Posted by BRD4

@Meanwhile:Of course it depends on the music too, but I have a CD rip(FLAC) of an album(not a remaster of an old one) and a DVD-A rip(FLAC) of the same album and the difference is noticable.

Well, as someone has pointed out, that might be a mastering issue. Or it could be the placebo effect, which before now has regularly convinced people that $20,000 amps sound enormously better than $500 ones... that sound exactly the same. People resist believing it, but the placebo effect has enormous power over most people.

I tested several songs with both Clip+ and my laptop. I prefer my laptop's SQ to Clip+. If J3's sound is pretty much the same as Clip+, I'm not sure I'm going to buy a player at all, since I mostly listen to music at home; Any idea?

There are two possibilities:

1. You have a laptop with a good sound card. My non-laptop Shuttle XS35 (an ultra low power book sized PC) sounds very nice and so did my old HP720 (a WinCE sub-notebook.)

2. You're easily satisfied with relatively low sq. Nothing wrong with this, and there are people like that, and more power to them. (And no, this isn't disproved by your preference for 24 bit recordings!)

But really, it doesn't matter which. My advice is to skip the J3. In fact, it's a no-brainer - you're happy with your laptop and don't prize portability. You can even add a lot/all of the J3's features by downloading JetAudio:

http://www.jetaudio.com/products/jetaudio/

That's if you even want those features - some of the most useful are improving the quality of low bit rate files.

And as someone suggested, install Rockbox on the Clip+ for the longer life while playing flacs and the better EQ.

Another option you could consider if you do fall out of love with your laptop is to add an external sound card or headphone camp or combined dac/amp. I'd have thought very few (if any) would produce much better sound from your Phonaks than the Clip though. So if the laptop really is keeping up, I wouldn't bother fussing unless you want to drive particularly awkward headphones.

Finally, is there any area of your current system's sound you consider a weak spot? If there is, and you be specific about, someone might suggest eg a pair of phones with exactly the right characteristics for your needs.

[BRD4]

@meanwhile: Thanks. These are from the specifications of my laptop: (Audio and Sound section)

Device/ Status/ Driver/ Version
ATI High Definition Device/ Enabled/ AtiHdmi.sys/ 7.11.0.7706
IDT High Definition Audio CODEC/ Enabled/ stwrt64.sys/ 6.10.6292.0

My laptop is HP Pavilion dv6 and I bought is last year(around 1200$)
So, is it the first possibility or the second? Is my laptop better than Sansa/Cowon? Any more specs needed?

[JK98]

Either buy just the Clip+, or buy the J3 and the Clip+. At $30 for the 2GB Clip+ it is a great buy to have as a spare player, or to use while running or at the gym, when you don't want to risk an expensive player. If you put a $30 32GB microSDHC card in the 2GB Clip+, you have a great tiny $60 34GB player.

[meanwhile]

Originally Posted by BRD4

@meanwhile: Thanks. These are from the specifications of my laptop: (Audio and Sound section)

Device/ Status/ Driver/ Version
ATI High Definition Device/ Enabled/ AtiHdmi.sys/ 7.11.0.7706
IDT High Definition Audio CODEC/ Enabled/ stwrt64.sys/ 6.10.6292.0

My laptop is HP Pavilion dv6 and I bought is last year(around 1200$)
So, is it the first possibility or the second? Is my laptop better than Sansa/Cowon? Any more specs needed?

To give an objective, technically based opinion I'd have to see a test of the frequency response and noise levels coming the machine.

But why should you care? The Clip is one of the best sounding players, and you've decided that you prefer the sound on the laptop. I'd say that you should back your own taste - although the Clip is so cheap that I can't see any reason not to have one. Listening to music is about what makes you happy - plus the physical aspects of hearing vary so much person to person.

Something you might consider is a pair of headphones to go with your IEMs - maybe some lightweight superaural ones if you're not into the full size type. Grado 60s or 80s, Alessandro Ms1s, Sennheiser PX200, Superlux 668 (these are full size) are all very well thought of and reasonably priced (I'm assuming you're in the US - Grados are overpriced everywhere else.) Or for more money Senn HD25's are widely considered the ultimate portable rock phone (they can' reach great volumes with the Clip though, I believe.) You get a different sound from phones that some people prefer - if you're searching for more this might be what you need. (My own 25s arrived an hour ago and even though they're not burned in I already prefer them to any IEM I've used.) You could look at

http://www.head-fi.org/t/433318/shoo...added-01-02-12

Oh - and there is something called the Cortex CHP2500 DJ Phone that some people here swear is better than most $200 phones, but which you can find on the net for less than $50 if you're in the US. (I'm in the UK.)

Good phones also last longer than most IEMs. (The chatter is that Phonaks aren't the toughest of IEMs - although they're said to be some of the best sounding.)