New Hope for Youtube on Zune HD - DaveMac please read

[DoomRoot13]

So its well known that Windows Phone 7 will not have Flash support and the browser will also not have html5 support. Today however it was announced that it would have Youtube support. In the video in the link below, a WP7 phone plays a poor selection of a youtube video.

http://www.techflash.com/seattle/201...s_phone_7.html

It explains that "Microsoft is using publicly available application programming interfaces to access and play the underlying H.264-encoded YouTube videos."
It seems pretty simple enough. Hopefully ZuneHD gets this in a future update. I don't see why it wouldnt be possible.

[Celenet]

I hope so too.

[nate8nate]

Looks like they used some HTML5 so it should, in theory be possible on the ZuneHD*, I believe. Now we just need to know if the Zune team is willing on integrating it.

*I'm not quite sure which browser versions WP7 and the Zune OS use, might be a problem.

[DoomRoot13]

The WP7 browser is IE7 with some elements of 8, while the ZuneHD browser is IE6 with some elements of 7. However the WP7 browser does not support html5. The Zune HD then, does not need html5 to use youtube in the same way WP7 will be able to use youtube. Hopefully then, the Zune team will be able to integrate the same technique into the Zune HD browser.

[m_k]

I don't own a Zune HD, nor will I own one, unless someone gives me one, or, I find one for ten bucks at a yard sale. And, my Zune 30 and Zune 80 are at Ver. 3.1 firmware and shall never be "out"-graded to any higher version number.

That out of the way, haven't I read that the Zune HD supports H.264? If it does, then It should not need anything more than a few lines of code to view ANY H.264-encoded files on any website.

All it will have to do is use the existing browser to download the file, using the existing HTTP routines built into the browser, and then, use the inherent H.264 codec to display the video.

Presuming of course that it does have the ability to display H.264 videos. (If not, it'd take a bit more effort to port the codec over, but I can't really believe that this would be very difficult for Microsoft to do.)

This is not to say that they WILL do so, no matter HOW easy it might be for them. If they decide from On High that it is not in their strategic interest to extend the service life of the Zune HD -- rather than "sell-up" their fanbase to their new telephones (or their rumored next-version Zune HD which I am guessing will be a gelded phone), then I do not believe that ANY amount of reasoning or pleading or holding breath until turning blue will move them to reconsider their strategic vision.

This is the company that put their full weight behind Microsoft Bob, Windows Me, Quick Pascal, and various other world-changing (*giggle*) products, and were NOT moved to change their course... until they decided to change their course, at which time those products were dropped like hot potatoes (a fate I would think more likely for the existing Zune HD than any of the other alternatives, but sooner or later we'll all find out what they're going to do).

Thankfully, none of this really matters, except for those whose jobs depend on the product (and those whose identity or self-esteem depends on the product's success or lack thereof).

For everyone else, it's just a mildly amusing drama to watch from afar.

[BlindBandit]

Zune HD will NOT get Youtube support period. Dave had said this time & time again, it's a XNA software issue & Zune HD hardware issue.

[DoomRoot13]

Originally Posted by BlindBandit

Zune HD will NOT get Youtube support period. Dave had said this time & time again, it's a XNA software issue & Zune HD hardware issue.

This method would not require building an app with XNA. It is very possible with Zune hardware. All it would require would be and update to the browser.

[BlindBandit]

Originally Posted by DoomRoot13

This method would not require building an app with XNA. It is very possible with Zune hardware. All it would require would be and update to the browser.

1st, The Zune HD browser run on IE 6 mobile which is very old & has 128mb of ram. 2nd i'm not seeing this happing any time soon or never because Zune HD got outdated & Microsoft move away from Zune HD to Windows Phone 7. 3rd, even with a update to the Zune HD for IE 6 mobile version you will STILL not get YouTube support they don't want too or the browser can't support YouTube which it can't because you need at least IE 7 or IE 8.

[m_k]

This is getting pretty comical.

Look, kids, I'm not buyin' the "can't view u-toob content without new hardware" fairytale.

Let's apply some REALLY simple logic, shall we?

1. I can download MP4 videos from u-toob -- using the free edition of the "DownloadHelper" add-in, NO conversion involved (if there were conversion, it would insert a "bug" (watermark) since the free edition does not give "clean" format conversions, to help motivate you to spring for the pay edition). Google began offering MP4 version as an option several months ago, and a while back they changed the way they are invoke -- I believe that now, you can force any video to be sent to you in MP4 mode by appending "&fmt=18" to the end of the URL.
2. I can load these MP4 videos into my Zune 80, without any transcoding (either prior to loading into Zune.exe, or by Zune.exe). I believe that Ipods, Sansa Views, Sansa Fuze+, and Zune HD can also view these videos without any processing.
3. The Zune HD has a simple web browser in its firmware. This browser does not do anything fancy, but, since it IS a web browser, it is able to download files (otherwise, it could not function AS a web browser).
4. If the Zune HD's browser can download the MP4 files, and the Zune HD's video player can display the MP4 files, then there is only ONE missing piece of the puzzle: telling the Zune HD's browser to download the MP4 files, and hand them off to the Zune HD's video player.

If there are ANY flaws in my logic, please point them out.

BTW, I am not inclined to accept "duh, they SAID that it can't do it, dood!" as evidence of "flaws in my logic."

Since I've outlined in detail WHY it is that I believe it can be done (rather than simply saying "duh, I believe they CAN do it, dood!"), I would appreciate it if my logic was not dismissed with a bunch of hand-waving NON-logic (AKA the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy).

[steinburger1109]

Originally Posted by m_k

*snip*

If the Zune HD's browser can download the MP4 files, and the Zune HD's video player can display the MP4 files, then there is only ONE missing piece of the puzzle: telling the Zune HD's browser to download the MP4 files, and hand them off to the Zune HD's video player. *snip*

What you said is all very true, except this one part. It's true that the browser can download, but (I'm not positive about this, hopefully someone can confirm/deny me) this is where the "128 RAM" issue comes into play. I believe that the browser only downloads web page info to the RAM, not the archive memory. Thus, if the method you're proposing were implicated, the video size + all the other information it's processing must be less than 128 MB. So, if they were going to use this method, the video sizes would need to be rather small, and it would severely limit the number of videos you could watch. So, for it to be a valid means of getting media, it WOULD require an update to allow download access to the part of the memory that isn't the RAM, which if I remember correctly, I think you said it wouldn't require one.

... I thank you for taking an interest in our misery, though.

[Mr. Popo]

excuse me if im being ignorant, but wouldnt it be a rather simple ordeal for MS to add a bit of code to allow videos to be downloaded to the flash memory instead of the ram? it seems as though it wouldnt be too difficult. however i think the real reason they wont do something like that is due to the fact that such a download method could compromise the extremely tight security they keep on the device. for example if they add a way to do that, then i think someone would be able to exploit it to access files on the device without the Zune software, which god knows would be a horrible thing

[medion]

Originally Posted by nate8nate

Looks like they used some HTML5 so it should, in theory be possible on the ZuneHD*, I believe. Now we just need to know if the Zune team is willing on integrating it.

*I'm not quite sure which browser versions WP7 and the Zune OS use, might be a problem.

It's not HTML5. It's a side app running alongside the browser, causing the browser to extract the video. Windows Mobile currently does this when viewing the Youtube Mobile website. When you click the video link, it loads WMP and plays the video (3GP container).

Originally Posted by DoomRoot13

The WP7 browser is IE7 with some elements of 8, while the ZuneHD browser is IE6 with some elements of 7. However the WP7 browser does not support html5. The Zune HD then, does not need html5 to use youtube in the same way WP7 will be able to use youtube. Hopefully then, the Zune team will be able to integrate the same technique into the Zune HD browser.

Close. Yes, IE on WP7 is IE7 with elements of IE8 (and I believe it might be using part of IE9's upcoming javascript engine, but I could be wrong). IE6 mobile is a straight port of IE6 with no elements of IE7.

Originally Posted by BlindBandit

Zune HD will NOT get Youtube support period. Dave had said this time & time again, it's a XNA software issue & Zune HD hardware issue.

Dave said he cannot comment on apps that he is, isn't, or may be working on, but that we shouldn't expect Youtube in the near future. While this can be interpreted as "No," and that's certainly how I view it, Dave hasn't outright confirmed it as you've stated.

Originally Posted by m_k

This is getting pretty comical.

Look, kids, I'm not buyin' the "can't view u-toob content without new hardware" fairytale.

Let's apply some REALLY simple logic, shall we?

1. I can download MP4 videos from u-toob -- using the free edition of the "DownloadHelper" add-in, NO conversion involved (if there were conversion, it would insert a "bug" (watermark) since the free edition does not give "clean" format conversions, to help motivate you to spring for the pay edition). Google began offering MP4 version as an option several months ago, and a while back they changed the way they are invoke -- I believe that now, you can force any video to be sent to you in MP4 mode by appending "&fmt=18" to the end of the URL.
2. I can load these MP4 videos into my Zune 80, without any transcoding (either prior to loading into Zune.exe, or by Zune.exe). I believe that Ipods, Sansa Views, Sansa Fuze+, and Zune HD can also view these videos without any processing.
3. The Zune HD has a simple web browser in its firmware. This browser does not do anything fancy, but, since it IS a web browser, it is able to download files (otherwise, it could not function AS a web browser).
4. If the Zune HD's browser can download the MP4 files, and the Zune HD's video player can display the MP4 files, then there is only ONE missing piece of the puzzle: telling the Zune HD's browser to download the MP4 files, and hand them off to the Zune HD's video player.

If there are ANY flaws in my logic, please point them out.

There is a flaw in your logic, the 3rd bullet point about downloading files. The Zune's web browser is actually not capable of downloading files (aside from images thanks to the last FW update, with limitations). Aside from that, it can only download to cache, and it struggles to even manage that properly. It also has a small cache (roughly 6MB).

The only way that MS can use the browser to launch Youtube videos would be to cause clicking a video link to launch an external app, which going by the way the Zune HD is designed to dump memory when entering/exiting apps, would be a real pain in the arse given the low amount of available RAM.

But yes, if the Zune HD were able to download files, then that would open the possibility you're speaking of. The core browser it's pulled from has this capability, but so far MS has been coy about opening up the ability to download files directly to the device (with the exceptions of music from the marketplace, and images from the browser).

[m_k]

Originally Posted by medion

But yes, if the Zune HD were able to download files, then that would open the possibility you're speaking of. The core browser it's pulled from has this capability, but so far MS has been coy about opening up the ability to download files directly to the device (with the exceptions of music from the marketplace, and images from the browser).

Well, there you have it in a nutshell.

If it can download music, it can download videos. In fact, doesn't it ALREADY let you purchase videos? Regardless, files is files.

Key word, of course, is "coy" -- IMO it doesn't download certain content, because they don't WANT it to download certain content. Absent any explanation from them as to their thinking, all we can do is speculate. Personally, MY speculation is that if they allowed people to download certain content with the hardware they already own, those people would have little motivation to buy NEW hardware.

My speculation is based on a smidge of understanding of how "things internet" work. I wrote a book on browser programming (Macmillan), and more magazine articles than I can remember on the topic (tutorials on everything from integrating the IE engine in standalone applications, to IIS server-add-in development, to scripting, to standalone Internet utilities, etc. etc. etc., ad pukum.)

Now, this was a lifetime or two ago, but somehow, I can't shake the notion that some things don't change -- like "laws of nature" and "files is files."

[lem7]

='( ....thats all I got to say

[Mr. Popo]

couldnt it load 3mb chunks of video into the cahce and as one is finished playing, it is deleted, and the next starts playing as the one after that is loaded? that seems like a verry reasonable solution

[medion]

Well, there you have it in a nutshell.

If it can download music, it can download videos. In fact, doesn't it ALREADY let you purchase videos? Regardless, files is files.

Nope. Marketplace on device only allows for purchase and downloading of music. The browser itself only allows for downloading of images, with severe limitations.

Sorry M__K, but your understanding comes with loopholes. The browser can only "download" to cache, which is too small for all but the shortest of video clips. Also, MS doesn't allow you to have any direct file management on the device (as you've mentioned).

But let's play devil's advocate and say that MS would allow us to download videos. Extracting videos from Youtube is a no-no according to Google. Sure, we have our own desktop (and mobile) apps that do it. But MS is afraid of being sued for sneezing, as Dave has stated. They're not going to allow you to download a video from Youtube.

That leaves streaming. Given the way that the Zune HD handles memory, and the general lack of memory, this won't happen without a complete re-write to the way that the Zune HD does multi-tasking.

I want it, you want it, but without a dedicated Youtube app, it's not happening.

couldnt it load 3mb chunks of video into the cahce and as one is finished playing, it is deleted, and the next starts playing as the one after that is loaded? that seems like a verry reasonable solution

You'd have to deal with re-buffering ever 3MB. On an H.264 720p file, that could be every few seconds. That would get old fast.

[Mr. Popo]

i think it would be a very simple update for them to make a youtube app, i still dont see a problem with it, i mean its not like if they ask google for permission theyre gonna say no, and even if they did, just dont make it a youtube specific app, make it a generic web video app

[Zuniq]

YouTube, most of the times, can "kill" the need of purchasing videoclips or even whole movies for a portable device like Zune HD through marketplace...it could be against their marketing...