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  #1  
Old 09-12-2010, 02:02 PM
brycej brycej is offline
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Default MSC vs. MTP: I know I am dumb...

Newbie with the Clip+.
I know u can run it either as msc or mtp.

I believe my thumb drives for my computer are probably msc. So are my external hard drives. If I am wrong, tell me.

I think my clip+ is now in mtp mode. That means some of my directory/file software won't see the clip+ (such as the double paned Turbo Navigator) though it can see thumb and external hard drives; but WinExp and My Computer and some other programs can see the Clip+ in MTP mode. And if u use the latter software, u can drag and drop tagged music files on to the clip+.

Now here is my stupid questions:
Is one mode a slam dunk over the other?
Is one mode better in certain situations?

I don't like changing settings without knowing what I getting into.
In general I like all my directory and file software to recognize the clip+.
But I don't know.

One last question: before u pull a thumb drive out of the usb port, u are supposed to use the "safely remove hardware" and tell the computer ahead of time that u are going to pull the damn thing out.

With my clip+, it doesn't seem to show up (I guess it's because it is in msc mode) and so I don't use the "safely remove hardware" and I just yank it.

So far this has not caused total protonic reversal (see, Ghostbusters 1 re crossing the streams) for my computer.

Any comments? I can handle insults too to some extent.

I have googled the two modes. I have read the wiki entries and other webpages but I want it translated into clip+ language. I have done a search on this subforum and have found nothing tho I find it hard to believe it hasn't been discussed tho perhaps in regard to other players.
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  #2  
Old 09-12-2010, 02:07 PM
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Marvin the Martian Marvin the Martian is offline
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You're not seeing the safely remove hardware because the player is in MTP mode.
Unless you have DRM stuff, like audiobooks, or Rhapsody music, your best bet is to use MSC mode....everything will recognize it then.
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Last edited by Marvin the Martian; 09-12-2010 at 02:40 PM. Reason: typos
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  #3  
Old 09-12-2010, 02:13 PM
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FreeZ5 FreeZ5 is offline
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The MSC/MTP thing is a common question wrt the Clip/Clip+/Fuze.

The real problem is that the player defaults to Auto Detect, and it occasionally changes from MSC to MTP unexpectedly. (BTW never happened to me.) When new firmware is installed (or the player is reverted to factory defaults), then it is set back to Auto Detect. So folks using Windows and MSC would be changed to MTP.


Steve
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  #4  
Old 09-12-2010, 02:43 PM
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lestatar lestatar is offline
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Agree with the guys - the best thing to avoid confusion with Sandisk devices is simply to pick one mode and stick with it - as Steve says, do avoid the Auto-Detect option at all costs.

For MS Explorer-style folder browsing, perhaps MSC will work best for you.

If you use an application like MediaMonkey, Winamp, etc, it might work better for you if you opt for MTP.

only way to decide is to try both yourself, with a couple of cds/albums thrown in as a test
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  #5  
Old 09-12-2010, 03:10 PM
Confuseling Confuseling is offline
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And don't worry about the protonic reversal ( good term).

The reason you need to safely unmount a filesystem is because of caching - what your computer says it has written to a filesystem, it might actually not have yet. It sometimes waits till it has a convenient moment, essentially - either because it isn't busy doing something else, or because it's grouped together things it intends to write together more efficiently. Safely umounting something essentially just means synchronising what is on the disk and what ought to be.

If your computer hasn't recognised the clip, pulling it out is harmless - although I would suggest you should always wait a good five or ten seconds after you've plugged it in, just to make sure it isn't halfway through figuring something out.

[this post not necessarily 100% technically accurate - I'm no expert... but I think it's the general gist]

Last edited by Confuseling; 09-12-2010 at 03:17 PM.
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  #6  
Old 09-13-2010, 05:18 AM
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And don't fool around much with MTP and MSC - your music might 'disappear', as I found out, when all my files totalled occupied lesser space than what Win 7 reported the storage usage was.

Turns out that MTP music went into a hidden folder.
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  #7  
Old 09-13-2010, 12:16 PM
Mikerman Mikerman is offline
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I have found that MSC mode works the easiest and cleanest, and error-free. Recommended for use, if you have DRM-free files.

And I always safely detach--I find it just a good habit to have.
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  #8  
Old 09-13-2010, 01:19 PM
Confuseling Confuseling is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikerman View Post
...
And I always safely detach--I find it just a good habit to have.
Undoubtedly - and I'm not suggesting that if the option is there, you should ever ignore it. I'm just saying that if the option doesn't appear, you shouldn't worry about unplugging it - your computer *probably* hasn't mounted it in the first place, so there's probably no risk.
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  #9  
Old 09-14-2010, 04:59 PM
defaultluser defaultluser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Confuseling View Post
And don't worry about the protonic reversal ( good term).

The reason you need to safely unmount a filesystem is because of caching - what your computer says it has written to a filesystem, it might actually not have yet. It sometimes waits till it has a convenient moment, essentially - either because it isn't busy doing something else, or because it's grouped together things it intends to write together more efficiently. Safely umounting something essentially just means synchronising what is on the disk and what ought to be.

If your computer hasn't recognised the clip, pulling it out is harmless - although I would suggest you should always wait a good five or ten seconds after you've plugged it in, just to make sure it isn't halfway through figuring something out.

[this post not necessarily 100% technically accurate - I'm no expert... but I think it's the general gist]
You don't have to unmount USB devices under Windows XP or later, because the OS does not cache writes. This reduces performance, but guarantees easier device removal.

Just yank the Clip+ out of the USB slot when Windows Explorer says the copy is complete.
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Old 09-14-2010, 06:46 PM
Confuseling Confuseling is offline
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I did not know that. I wonder then, why the option is still visible? Maybe just to teach good habits, and to verify that a file on the device isn't still open for writing by a program...

Last edited by Confuseling; 09-14-2010 at 07:00 PM.
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  #11  
Old 09-14-2010, 07:23 PM
skip252 skip252 is offline
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That option is still available because while Windows Explorer may be finished that doesn't not mean all background processes have ceased. I have had a couple interesting experiences working in MS-DOS finding and deleting zero byte files that were left when someone just yanked the cord.

The safely remove option checks to see that all background processes have ceased before it gives the OK to disconnect. If you open the Task Manager or better yet have Process Explorer running during a file transfer you will be able to see why "just yank the cord" has caused more than one case of file corruption.
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  #12  
Old 09-15-2010, 12:12 PM
m_k m_k is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skip252 View Post
That option is still available because while Windows Explorer may be finished that doesn't not mean all background processes have ceased. I have had a couple interesting experiences working in MS-DOS finding and deleting zero byte files that were left when someone just yanked the cord.

The safely remove option checks to see that all background processes have ceased before it gives the OK to disconnect. If you open the Task Manager or better yet have Process Explorer running during a file transfer you will be able to see why "just yank the cord" has caused more than one case of file corruption.
I'll second that -- and add that plenty of times when I WANT to unmount a USB drive, the "Safely Remove Hardware" trayicon tells me I can NOT remove it at that moment because it's busy.

I highly recommend downloading the "Unlocker Assistant" (I forget where I got it -- probably SourceForge or one of those FOSS type sites). It lets you go in and force a lock (or locks, plural) to break, so that you CAN get the "Safely Remove" TO release the device.

Any time you have a folder open, you can't safely remove. And, either most of the time or all of the time (I haven't done exhaustive testing) accessing a file on a USB drive (or any drive, I suppose) with VLC will create a lock that does NOT go away until you CLOSE the VLC program -- or, break the lock with "Unlocker Assistant."

Then there's the Window's indexer, which LOVES to go all busy on a drive RIGHT when I want to remove it. Argh.

There are lots of other things that can cause you grief (in the form of a corrupted file system) if you just yank the plug WITHOUT doing the "safely remove" thing.

Eventually, one tires of running CHKDSK and trying to guess at what WAS in those "recovered" garbage files it leaves in its wake after cleaning up the mess.
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  #13  
Old 09-16-2010, 01:58 PM
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meetooman meetooman is offline
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Instant disconnection is clearly the most obvious advantage of the MTP mode. As soon as you see your transfers are said done on the device's screen you are free to unplug it.
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Old 09-16-2010, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meetooman View Post
Instant disconnection is clearly the most obvious advantage of the MTP mode. As soon as you see your transfers are said done on the device's screen you are free to unplug it.
I would add no-brainer playlist creation/management as well to the list of MTP benefits.

I use both protocols fluidly and am more than savvy enough to utilize the benefits of MSC and MTP. However, the more time I spend here on the forums, the more I am becoming convinced that MTP, with the right tools, might actually be a bit easier for the novice DAP/PC user. Especially those users who don't especially grasp the concept of folders/subfolders and even drag/drag or copy/paste functions.

MTP via Winamp and for my MTP devices is so easy even my mom can use it on her own to manage her Sony E/S series players.

This is also IMO the reason/principle that iTunes is quite successful. True, for us more capable and experienced enthusiasts, we generally all see iTunes for what it is - a bloated, controlling, limiting piece of software that really does nothing especially well. Still, for the novice tech/DAP user, I can easily understand the appeal of iTunes - ease of use and simplicity.

And of course, for the Apple fanboys

my 2 cents, FWIW
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  #15  
Old 09-16-2010, 02:40 PM
skip252 skip252 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meetooman View Post
Instant disconnection is clearly the most obvious advantage of the MTP mode. As soon as you see your transfers are said done on the device's screen you are free to unplug it.
After a longer transfer time. I have timed MTP vs. MSC transfers on mine and at least 4 other Windows based computers. The shortest MTP transfer time has been 10% longer and the worst case was 30% longer.

I can't see being able to disconnect safely immediately as an advantage if I have to wait a longer to do so. I've read several posts concerning your enthusiasm for MTP but until the protocol is implemented properly across the board I'll stick with MSC.
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Old 09-16-2010, 02:55 PM
m_k m_k is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lestatar View Post
I use both protocols fluidly and am more than savvy enough to utilize the benefits of MSC and MTP. However, the more time I spend here on the forums, the more I am becoming convinced that MTP, with the right tools, might actually be a bit easier for the novice DAP/PC user. Especially those users who don't especially grasp the concept of folders/subfolders and even drag/drag or copy/paste functions.
OTOH, my method is to convert my CDs to MP3, and create a directory for each album -- which I then place in a directory for each artist (Dylan dir, holding Dylan albums, and so forth).

I do the same with podcasts and selected archives of talk radio shows I deem worth re-listening to (a dir for each group).

I can then selectively drag/drop as much or as little to any of my Sansa players. My CD collection is small enough that... um, I mean, my music tastes are sufficiently discriminating, yeah, that's the ticket, that I can drag my entire MUSIC tree to a Sansa with 8GB of space, and still have some room left over.

Unfortunately, it's not nearly so easy with my Zunes -- which is why I don't generally listen to music on my Zunes. Call me lazy, but when it's a choice between a couple of simple drag/drop ops -- and then having my selected audio on a Sansa -- or, a fairly major time/effort committment (load program, futz around with it interminably, begin sync nonsense, wait... then gracefully extract myself from Zune.exe hell -- chances are really good that I'll be listening to my music on a Sansa.

Sorry, Dave, but ya really skrood da pooch with that one IMO. Make it hard enough to do something... and people won't do it. (And spare me the "Ipod is no easier" crap -- I don't use THOSE bastiches either!)
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  #17  
Old 09-17-2010, 03:01 PM
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meetooman meetooman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skip252 View Post
After a longer transfer time. I have timed MTP vs. MSC transfers on mine and at least 4 other Windows based computers. The shortest MTP transfer time has been 10% longer and the worst case was 30% longer.

I can't see being able to disconnect safely immediately as an advantage if I have to wait a longer to do so. I've read several posts concerning your enthusiasm for MTP but until the protocol is implemented properly across the board I'll stick with MSC.
Please understand that what is likable in instant disconnection is not that it's faster, but that it's safer. Have you seen the many posts about how some Cowon players were harmed to bricked on Mac OS computers after a simple MSC connection? Still today some people corrupt their MSC disks on Windows unplugging too soon.

There was a previous post where some of us also measure our transfer speed. MTP is always longer because the protocol is not about copying file bytes to a disk, it is about hiding a file system and sending metadata to a database too.
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Old 09-17-2010, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m_k View Post
OTOH, my method is to convert my CDs to MP3, and create a directory for each album -- which I then place in a directory for each artist (Dylan dir, holding Dylan albums, and so forth).

I do the same with podcasts and selected archives of talk radio shows I deem worth re-listening to (a dir for each group)....SNIPPED...
Ah! But consider the possibility that these actions, while so terribly basic for you [and me, though I don't use that type of Artist folder hierarchy] is beyond the ability of most computer users out there. Most people I have found simply have absolutely no idea where their stuff is on their computer, especially their music.

And nice going on the discriminating music thing
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