LOD vs. J3 HO? Please help Newb DKFT!

[Robn13]

(Apologies for using your call sign in title of this thread if it offends DKFT. Not intended, just seeking his help and clarification.)

My journey (and troubles) began seeking the portable equivalent of usb audio>dac/amp>HP>Heaven.

1) The first destination provided by Tourmaster Google was of course Headcase.org. Lots of nice people over there but it doesn’t take long for any semi-astute bobo to figure out the scam. It is the internet equivalent of the geographic destinations of Las Vegas or Orlando. Those places are singularly designed to extract as much money as quickly as possible from the rubes who, for whatever reason, choose them as a destination. OK, I’m a parent so Orlando is a right of passage for me. As my just 11 yo daughter proclaimed, “If you didn’t want us, you should have kept your snake in its hole. Now deal with it!”
Yes M’am.

2) Forget that a $200 Walmart netbook can do what my $300 Droid Razr/Stilletto/Switchblade Super Maxx can’t, give me a digital signal. Or, in a singularly obscene example of the arrogance of the Fruit Co., I would have to buy a $500 CLAS or HP-P1 to get the same out of one of their beauties. Life is too short, I am the father of teenage female adolescents, etc.

3) Salvation appeared in the form of a reference to the banned NwAvGuy. OK, at last, the straight scoop. He in turn recommends ABI. So I join looking for info about the J3. Good choice. I’m not going to make the same mistake some other poor dumb newb made and mention a brand that prompted Dark Side to go all MMA on him. How about I refer to that outfit as “Fangboi” ? Is that OK Dark Side? (Sweet rescue by the way Addicted, nice guy!) So here is where I am. Over on Headcase, someone asked, which is going to give the best sound, a J3 connected to an amp from the HO or Fruit connected to the amp thru an LOD. I get the distinction. An LO signal is pure, doesn’t get screwed up going through the onboard amp, while an HO signal has already gone through all the distorting internal circuits and will then be presented to an outboard amp that will magnify those distortions. Fine, EXCEPT, there are apparently exceptions to this rule. On some pieces of Fruit the signal apparently DOES get amplified before arriving at the LOD. And the famous DKFT posted on Headcase that the J3 HO was essentially an LO on that particular unit and posted a graph to support his statement. Trying to figure this out for myself, I came to this link:
http://beavishifi.com/articles/headphonejack/index.htm.
OK, impedance mismatch and signal voltage level. I think I get most of this. You can’t just throw components together because the line has the right connectors on both ends. Then I read about the Digizoid ZO2. It seems to be well reviewed by actually honest people, including on ABI. And on the Digizoid website they show it connected from the HO on a DAP that has no LO, and thru a LOD line on a piece of Fruit. Now having teenage adolescent females, there is an ample supply of discarded Fruit strewn all over the house. So, FINALLY,my questions:
What did DKFT really mean? Please explain the exceptions to the general LOD and HO distinctions.
Which would more likely sound better, J3 HO>ZO2 or Fruit LOD>ZO2?
What about ibasso DX 100? Experience, review? According to “reviewer” on Headcase it blew his J3 out of the pond. More xxx$$$ hype?
Note that these are fairly specific, technical questions. Please don’t give “Who shot John?” answers. Looking for real education and actual experience.
Thanks!

[CrowdAds]

[Jack4L]

Firstly, welcome to the forums. Secondly, I wouldn't worry too much about these finer details. Overall, I'd say it depends on what headphones you have. If you get some really sensitive headphones or plan on owning more then you will ever need then a good source is always going to be a good idea. If your only planning on getting a set or two then buying a set that doesn't need a headphone amp is going to be a better idea I'd rather have 2 headphones that I like to use versus one set that I like to use- but needs a brick attached to it to sound that way.

I'm sure you've read from countless opinion posts and reviews that a headphone amp always makes things sound better but that's just not the case for most people. At least not for most average everyday rational people. I've been using fairly high end audio gear for years now, using a broad range of varied sensitive headphones. I still have perfect hearing in both ears and I honestly don't really notice anything bad about using an MP3 players headphone output versus the same player that has a clean LO mode, hooked up to a well respected headphone amp. Nor do I notice any real gain from using really sensitive high end headphones with really clean high end audio sources. Possibly because I don't listen to some incredibly high end recordings, just my CD's at 256kbs on MP3's. So yeah- my 200€ headphone amp is probably the worst purchase I ever made. Would have rather bought more music, a really good dedicated external PC soundcard (Like the Echo Audiofire 2 or 4) or another set of headphones of which I feel I never have enough. I keep it though, maybe just to remind myself of not letting things get "Too far out of hand" :P

Oh and one exception, the Digizoid ZO2. That's basically a pretty bad headphone amp (Hisses like crazy on anything half sensitive) but a really sweet external EQ. Its not something I would get for a player that already has a nice EQ like the J3 but it is something I'd recommend for a player that has a really clean audio signal but no EQ like the Sansa Clip.

Anyway hope this helps and just so you know I don't consider myself an "Audiophile" or even someone that reeeallly knows about audio engineering too well. I'm just someone that's spent a good ammount of time in this hobby now and can honestly say that I've probably wasted more money then I would have needed to!

[saratoga]

There's almost no reason to prefer line out over headphone out. There is basically no difference on modern devices.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Robn13

Trying to figure this out for myself, I came to this link:
http://beavishifi.com/articles/headphonejack/index.htm.
OK, impedance mismatch and signal voltage level. I think I get most of this.

That link is so wrong/dumb I'm not even going to go through and try to correct it. Just close that tab, forget everything they said and never go back to that webpage. They're full of crap. If you want to know about line out, I recommend the wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_out_(signal)

[The DarkSide]

The ONLY reason I use the LOD on my iPod & Sony players is to bypass the volume controls on the device. There is no discernible difference to the listening experience. I just accidentally blasted my ears one too many times using the HP out. But, I do use the HP out to amp on certain players - like my Sansa's & stuff.

Now, calling DFKT in your title, and myself out by name in your thread,...that's kinda ****** up bro,...

[Marvin the Martian]

And how much trust can you put in a link named "beavis"hifi anyways?

[Robn13]

Much ado about nothing then. I really appreciate what you were saying because since I posted I started to think I was over-analyzing the whole thing. And adding a Digizoid to a J3 with BBE or whatever is typical of the way I can overkill things, just like my friends on headcase. All my files are lossless, get a good player, good phones, STFU and enjoy.
I USED to have a good grasp of electronics but that was back in school days. There is a subset of people on these forums though, like DKFT, who seem to have a real grasp of the finer details. Even if the point I'm all OCD over does not have a real audible impact, it bugs me if I can't understand what someone is saying.

Thanks for your statement saratoga, but it kind of flies in the face of what I have learned about LO vs. HO. LO is SUPPOSEDLY a much cleaner signal for outboard amplification. That's what I hope DKFT can clear up.
Which is why I mentioned his name in the thread title, just trying to get his attention without PMing him,which some people object to. ( Actually after I posted this reply I read your post more closely and see what you say about Beavis. Will definitely compare it to the link/resource you recommend so thanks.) So...

PEACE and APOLOGIES Dark Side. I actually thought your impulsive, straight from the gut expression on Fangboi products was honest and amusing. No offense intended and certainly no intention to call anybody out.
In fact if you know DKFT well enough, please tell him I would appreciate his help in remedying my ignorance.

I'd like to know how people are going to receive the ibasso DX 100. It certainly seems overpriced, just like the original Fangboi 801, BUT keeping an open mind, if it does sound noticeably better, then I might bite.

Anyway Jack thanks for your kind welcome and I'll look for you in the future if I may.

Cheers Guys! and Good Listening. Rob N

[saratoga]

Originally Posted by Robn13

Thanks for your statement saratoga, but it kind of flies in the face of what I have learned about LO vs. HO. LO is SUPPOSEDLY a much cleaner signal for outboard amplification.

You'd be amazed how clueless most self-proclaimed experts are. The guy you linked above wrote an entire article about impedance without knowing what it is. Just pulled stuff out of his butt authoritatively enough that it sounded credible.

In addition to wikipedia, this may also be interesting to you:

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/...impedance.html

Not specially about line out, but it discusses impedance and I see some of the comments people talk about line out on the ipods.

[Robn13]

I get it. But grasping everything NwAv says on that website would be like going back to school for a year. I WILL eventually wade through it all because I think he nails at least 90% of what he says and he is such a contrarian and iconoclastic bugger. Really going to pull the trigger on his ODA as soon as they put the ODAC in it next month.

Since you're a mod, please change the title on this thread if you think it will offend DKFT. I was just trying to get his attention and meant nothing by it. The deficiency and confusion is mine, not his.

I LIKE this forum so far and suggested a donation jar elsewhere in another post. Good info is valuable. Cheers.

[skip252]

It's your thread, you can change the title if you think it needs it. Use the Go Advanced option in the Edit menu for that.

[bennyboy]

Get a J3. It sounds sweeeeeet. You can modify and mutate the sound however your ears see fit.

No amp needed. Plug headphones in and press play.

[Robn13]

Well duh again. All sorts of answers and solutions.

Sure Saratoga, I get that even good electronic components are cheap. But you can't just throw alot of good components together and expect success. I think that's a big problem with equipment touted over on headcase.org. It takes good engineering an an appreciation for synergy, i.e. the sum of the parts sounding good. As someone very accurately stated, measurements don't reveal everything digital audio sound and it therefore takes a little art in the mix as well. Chinese/Korean companies are not noted for an appreciation of this concept. Their formula: cheap labor, low cost product that undercuts everyone else, get it out fast, and make lotsa money. Just look at the products Fangboi is pushing. He started high end, it was crap, now he is droping his prices and doing the engineering work that should have been done in the first place. He might even produce a good product someday.

If I have prejudices (and we ALL do) I like to keep my mind open enough to challenge them. Example, when Korean cars first appeared, Hyundai, Kia, etc. they were poorly engineered in comparison to their German or Japanese counterparts. Is a BMW overpriced? Sure, but once you drive one, man, PRECISION. It just FEELS good. Now the Korean car companies are catching up. Are they THERE yet? No, but you sure can't beat the value. That's why I was like, "How can Cowon compete with Sony, Philips, Apple, etc.?" Even so, based on research my first mp3 player years ago was a D2. It's brand new, never been used, I hope the battery is not DOA.

There is concern that cell phones are going to kill DAP. I THOUGHT I wanted usb audio with Android, and now I'm not so sure. I still have to research the downside of usb audio. I don't mean to bore people, but I've kind of been whipsawed between the crap you read about and is pushed on Headcase and the minimalist approach generally advocated here, i.e. the Clip and J3 are GOOD source units, get good headphones, and STFU because you really won't find anything to beat it.

It does take a mental adjustment like Skip noted, but look where I'm trying to plant my flag. Cheers!

[IDvsEGO]

Originally Posted by Robn13

I don't mean to bore people

hey, it's OK, accidents happen

[Enigmatic]

Originally Posted by Robn13

As someone very accurately stated, measurements don't reveal everything digital audio sound and it therefore takes a little art in the mix as well.

Who is this individual? I hope it is not someone like one of the black hats. http://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/critic3.htm. Measurements do reveal a lot if we are talking about audio. Measurements also correlate well with sound quality. For some examples, please see http://www.anythingbutipod.com/forum...19&postcount=1 and my signature.

[Robn13]

Interesting is one way of putting it DS.
You gotta admit I tossed you you a grapefruit on that one, IDvEGO. May I suggest a pinch of SUPEREGO in future posts?

I seem to have attracted the attention of the "measurement" police. OK, it's your sandbox, it's a nice sandbox, and you've all been in it longer than me.
But I'd like to play too so I'll give it a shot. Let's play NICE.

Did my homework, hit all the links, sigs, etc. Had already visited and bookmarked the Audio Critic and the Sound Expert. I GET it.

Enigmatic, a tip of the hat, "FLACs and MP3s" is an excellent piece of work. I cannot disagree with a single proposition in it. Your use of the notional person was a fantastic hook and the treatment of the subject matter, as far as it went, was exhaustive and accurate.

I said elsewhere that I did not realize the hifi world had become so polarized between two "camps." Greed and money, reality v. perception, analog v. digital, you can characterize it from a number different perspectives.

I've made my choice. The scene at Headfi is effed up, people are willing to lie and mislead others for bucks, nothing new about that. And they ARE dealing in lies, a very vast number of people cannot ID any discernible difference under the scientifically and statistically valid conditions you describe. SO, morally, scientifically, and objectively, you guys are right, they are wrong.

However I don't think everybody who has gets caught up in their claims and lies is a gullible fool and I hope I can briefly and concisely (yeah EGOID, I know) explain that position.

1) Sound is essentially a physical, mechanical wave, period. It is "analog", NOT digital.

2) I haven't studied psychoacoustics in along time. But when I wikied it, it was all instantly familiar.

Psychoacoustics is the scientific study of sound perception. More specifically, it is the branch of science studying the psychological and physiological responses associated with sound (including speech and music). It can be further categorized as a branch of psychophysics.
Hearing is not a purely mechanical phenomenon of wave propagation, but is also a sensory and perceptual event; in other words, when a person hears something, that something arrives at the ear as a mechanical sound wave traveling through the air, but within the ear it is transformed into neural action potentials. These nerve pulses then travel to the brain where they are perceived. Hence, in many problems in acoustics, such as for audio processing, it is advantageous to take into account not just the mechanics of the environment, but also the fact that both the ear and the brain are involved in a person’s listening experience.

3) So we have a mechanical wave CONVERTED into an electrical event (neural action potentials). Studying functional neuroanatomy is like drinking sand. Yes we have general functional brain anatomy mapped out and also the general pathways and connections between brain structures. Important knowledge? Of course. But I see absolutely no chance that we will ever be able to ID or evaluate the effect of the billions of circuits possible within the brain. That's why psychoacoustics is the study of the psychological and physiological effects of sound once it is converted into an electrical impulse on the gigantic circuit board of the brain.

4) Enigmatic, you cheated. You picked the ONE codec to put up against FLAC designed to beat it. "LAME originally stood for LAME Ain't an Mp3 Encoder."
A friggin genius by the name of Mike Cheng came up with a "psychoacoustic and noise shaping model for ISO based MP3 encoders." He called it "GPSYCHO" and he effin nailed it.

5) There's only one problem. A wave consists of an infinite number of points. There is absolutely no way you can digitalize a wave, no matter what the frequency or bit depth, without LOSING some information (energy). We only call codecs lossless relative to the recording source method, not the original, actual performance. That's why people are starting to turn back to vinyl. It just has more information. None of you guys can tell me for sure that that missing information, which we may not even be aware of let alone measure, is not responsible for a particular emotional or psychological perception of the sound that SOMEONE ELSE may experience.

6) OK, this is all BS, he's FOS, testing proves people can't tell the difference, he is talking about stuff that is beyond people's perception, etc. Several answers. One, how do you know? We're talking mechanical energy turned into electrical energy, it only takes 20 millivolts to initiate a neuronal action potential. Just because we can't consciously perceive or measure it doesn't mean it's not there or having an effect. Enigma, you obviously have statistical knowledge, what about the bell shaped curve and the ever decreasing number of people who have greater hearing acuity than we do. What do they really perceive or think they perceive?

7) No (sharp) doctor gets through med school without learning first hand about the incredible power of suggestion (up to and including hypnosis!) and the placebo effect. Is it all BS? Of course. But circuits in the brain start to light up, every single cell in the body is under control of the CNS, and there you go. IF these people WANT to THINK they hear a difference, to them, they WILL. If they experience pride of ownership from any of the snake oil crap in your link Enigma that's their problem. They may crave social interaction, seek a forum for expression and approval, go to Headfi meets and rub up against Jude's leg, etc. I DON'T CARE. Is it stupid? Sure, but it's their life, time, money, etc. If it makes 'em happy God Bless 'em.
I know this. Music used to be like a drug for me. The right tune, setting, mood, I'm high. I had JBL professional "sound reinforcement" bi amped speakers driven by bridged 500W Adcom amps. No distortion, great balance, you want to talk about sound wave energy, man I could FEEL it. (And no tinnitus!) Remember Tom Cruise, Risky Business, dancing in his underware? Compared to him I was an effin Super Freak (still am). I would love to get that feeling back. Times change, situations change, you can't let go in front of other people, dogs within a couple hundred yards of the house start barking, etc. But it was FUN! Am I too old, has my hearing changed, my brain circuits changed? Don't have any idea. But I'm sure willing to try to get that "feeling" back!

I'm tired. I have about another pg. but not tonight. Headfonia reviewed NwAvGuy's ODA, didn't like it, Guy writes a book in response, Mike from Headfonia responds, quoting Nelson Pass. I expected him to be on the Black Hat list etc.

Enigma, you used some conditional language in your post and that's a good sign. I OBJECTIVELY think we're right, BUT they could be onto something we can't understand or appreciate because of the way our brains are wired.

I'm not arguing or pontificating. I'm late to this little civil war and I'm trying to discuss it. I think you guys are smart, opinionated, articulate, and a fun challenge to deal with. Otherwise I wouldn't bother. Tell me to go away (I will) or get more popcorn DS.
Goodnight to all. Cheers and best regards. Rob

[saratoga]

Originally Posted by Robn13

5) There's only one problem. A wave consists of an infinite number of points. There is absolutely no way you can digitalize a wave, no matter what the frequency or bit depth, without LOSING some information (energy).

You are badly mistaken. While you can of course divide a piece of distance infinitely thinly, no physically existent wave can be so divided since any analog media supports only a finite bandwidth. Thus we can very easily digitize any mechanical wave with perfect accuracy and no loss of energy.

Originally Posted by Robn13

We only call codecs lossless relative to the recording source method, not the original, actual performance. That's why people are starting to turn back to vinyl. It just has more information.

This is just the sort of ignorance I derided the beavishifi guy for. You have no idea what you're saying, so you're just making things up.

Don't do that. Its disrespectful to bullshit people.

Originally Posted by Robn13

6) OK, this is all BS,

Correct.

[Marvin the Martian]

Originally Posted by Robn13

That's why people are starting to turn back to vinyl. It just has more information.

Sorry, but that statement makes me do this.....

You Tube

You Tube

[Enigmatic]

Originally Posted by Robn13

Sound is essentially a physical, mechanical wave, period. It is "analog", NOT digital.

Yes, sound is analogue. Even though CD players and MP3 players are digital devices, because they use digital-to-analogue converters, we still end up with an analogue signal.

There is absolutely no way you can digitalize a wave, no matter what the frequency or bit depth, without LOSING some information (energy).

I would not be too sure about that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist...mpling_theorem and item 3 in the following PDF. http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf.

We only call codecs lossless relative to the recording source method, not the original, actual performance. That's why people are starting to turn back to vinyl. It just has more information.

Please see above.

None of you guys can tell me for sure that that missing information, which we may not even be aware of let alone measure, is not responsible for a particular emotional or psychological perception of the sound that SOMEONE ELSE may experience.

There is no missing information. Please see above for the explanation. Anyway, your theory has already been tested. If there was missing information, it would be audible. Here is one example of how your theory can be tested: http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/ba...x_testing2.htm.

Here is another example of how your theory can be tested: http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/index...eId=4&blogId=1 and http://drewdaniels.com/audible.pdf.

OK, this is all BS, he's FOS, testing proves people can't tell the difference, he is talking about stuff that is beyond people's perception, etc. Several answers. One, how do you know?

We can only go by the evidence.

We're talking mechanical energy turned into electrical energy, it only takes 20 millivolts to initiate a neuronal action potential. Just because we can't consciously perceive or measure it doesn't mean it's not there or having an effect.

Maybe one day evidence will be produced that validates your points of view. Right now, the theory says that you are wrong. Right now, the evidence says that you are wrong.

Enigma, you obviously have statistical knowledge, what about the bell shaped curve and the ever decreasing number of people who have greater hearing acuity than we do. What do they really perceive or think they perceive?

It is true that an individual might, one day, be able to hear a difference. But enough ABX tests have been done so that I do not believe that this is going to ever happen. I may not be the only one who believes that this is going to be the case. Apparently Richard Clark believes that no one is going to hear a difference too. http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm.

Headfonia reviewed NwAvGuy's ODA, didn't like it, Guy writes a book in response, Mike from Headfonia responds, quoting Nelson Pass. I expected him to be on the Black Hat list etc.

Pass might be sincere in believing that his amplifiers sound better than, say, $300-US receivers from Sony, Panasonic, Onkyo, Kenwood, Pioneer, JVC, Yamaha, Denon, Harman Kardon, etc. Or he might only claim that his amplifiers sound better for marketing purposes only. Anyway, the evidence is stacked against Pass. An ABX test of a pair of $14 000-US Pass Laboratories monoblocks against a ten-year-old Yamaha integrated amplifier, PDF page 7: http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_i...ritic_24_r.pdf.

And if Pass is sincere in believing that his amplifiers sound better than ordinary amplifiers, he could always take on Richard Clark’s $6 000-US bet: http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/rcrules.htm. Pass should take out full-page ads in Stereophile and The Absolute Sound announcing his intention of winning the bet. But I do not think Pass will ever agree to Clark’s bet. What if Pass cannot hear a difference? It would be a marketing disaster.

Enigma, you used some conditional language in your post and that's a good sign. I OBJECTIVELY think we're right, BUT they could be onto something we can't understand or appreciate because of the way our brains are wired.

I rather look at the evidence instead of speculating on what might happen or speculating on what might not happen.

[The DarkSide]

Oh brother,...this is gonna get interesting.

[The DarkSide]

I'll go get some more popcorn now,...

[OriginalGusBus]

Originally Posted by The DarkSide

I'll go get some more popcorn now,...

I'll get some beer and chips for when you get back... I think I might need some mental lubrication for this one