While it certainly is nice that they've upgraded the headphones, I'd have the option to buy the DAPs without headphones at all. While the old headphones were crap, the new ones will cost the companies money - money they'll take from me, and money I'd rather spend on the headphones of my choice

and at what price do the point of diminishing return happens? or is it a classical audiophile of price == performance?

Now if only one of these companies would upgrade their capacity to compete with the 160 iPod. Enough with these stupid flash players. The 80 GB Zune is the only thing left even bothering to compete and now it seems even that is going to be discontinued. It's pretty pathetic on the part of all these companies to just let Apple win this game without even trying to keep up. The iPod is the least compatible player as far as audio formats, completely non-customizable, and really not that great overall, and no one's bothering to make a better product. Lame.

You mean there are headphones/earbuds not made in China?

Like Andreas stated, I'd much rather not pay for some crappy or just above par headphones and purchase my own. Besides, it will force people to have a better listening experience if they purchase their own.

You are completely missing the point. You are not paying extra for the upgraded headphones, throw them out if you don't like them. Why would you complain about getting more for your money?

You might not be paying full price for them, but I'm sure your paying some for them. I think its great for the average user, but like previously stated. It would be nice if you could buy without the headphones, even if it was only 10-20$ cheaper in some cases. Its nice to have more options.

I won't complain. Most companies like Apple charges more for the complete sale package with an utterly useless headphone, so why should we complain when we get more for less? Besides what makes you think these companies will charge less if they include a crappy earbud?

I've an A818 and find the earbuds to offer similar performance to my cx300, so now I use it on my everyday commute while I save my more more expensive Seenheisers and Shures for other occasions.

Hell, when I bought the A818 it was cheaper than the Zen with crappy earphones. If the cost is the same or even less, I see this trend as win-win. Not everyone is an elite audiophile who will spend $100-$200 on earphones.

Of course you're paying for superior bundled headphones, it's all factored in as a cost of production.

What I wish they would do is include some kind of gift voucher for buying a particular selection of headphones/earphones from say a particular retailer they have a partnership with - as opposed to sticking substandard or slightly improved buds in. Better yet make that aspect fully optional.

As for 160gb/80gb players, I suspect there really just isn't a sizeable market for them (may be totally wrong on this). I seriously doubt the average consumer has more than a few gigs of MP3s. As for video playback, well I suspect most would go straight for a PMP device or just a laptop. Realistically I don't see many being willing to watch a movie on a 2.5" screen, and frankly I don't blame them. So instead of focussing on maximising capacity, DAP manufacturers are likely catering to the larger target audience which desire a compact and sleek device above all else.

Grahm, IMO one way or the other people pay extra for packaged headphones. Being it costs extra money for the companies to package them, I am pretty sure they pass the cost on to the consumers.

musichound,
I know that it costs more to the company making them, but its literally pennies more and from the cost of the three above players, they cost the same as what other comparable players costs. The Zune 80 costs the same as the ipod 80, the zen x-fi costs the same as the Zen. There is no increased cost passed on to the buyer.

musichound, there are no evidence that companies will pass savings down to customers. Companies like Sony can make these literally for pennies.

I don't understand why some people who can afford to throw away $200-300 on a headphone will complain about getting freebies...

Samsung P2?????????

I guess the problem is, if you do have those $200-300 headphones (yours truly ^_^), then whatever they ship with the stock player is going to be a throwaway.

No doubt whatever the RRP is of the bundled earphones/IEMs, they're far cheaper to actually manufacture. Regardless though, I think it's inescapable that DAP manufacturers are looking to extract higher revenues from their decision. If that means their pricing strategy revolves around bundling higher quality earphones/IEMs while keeping the price low, then that's great but at the very least it shows DAP manufacturs are going to be further constrained in improving the actual sound quality of the player, as opposed to peripherals.

Seriously, I am with RedSky. I have a pair of HFI-780's ($250ish) I use with my D2. They are worth every penny! But I have four pairs of stock earbuds shoved in a drawer that never get used.

I do however keep another stock pair and a splitter handy at ALL times in case someone else wants to listen to music off my player... I don't want them using my sweet cans.

The only bad thing about the Zune premium headphones' cable is that you can hear them rubbing when you have quieter audio and you are doing anything other than sitting completely still. Other than that, they sound really good for out-of-the-box headphones, especially compared to those crappy headphones that Apple gives every iPod user.

Noise canceling player-a 2006 NW-S705F.

Any Sony player that comes with EX headphones are always good in SQ.

The Zune headphones are some of the worst headphones to EVER be included with a player. The cloth covering the cord transmitts wind blowing and brushing against anything loudly to your ears. If you like this 'feature' then these are good enough to stick with.

Aa on august 2:
"Noise canceling player-a 2006 NW-S705F.
Any Sony player that comes with EX headphones are always good in SQ."

Since when?

I really don't like this article. Not that it's a poor article, but the thing is, this sort of thinking that a dap will be "better quality because we ship them with better headphones than xx" is muddying the waters.
The only people that sort of thinking will be worth anything to, is the sort of people who wont know "good audio quality" from "loudness", and think the best sound you can get from a player is from the included headphones.

Consumers are not paying more for the above average headphones mentioned. The manufacturers would not have dropped the DAPs MSRP even if they were not included.

The term, good audio quality, is obviously subjective. This article is simply pointing out which DAPs/PMPs that the author has at his disposal sound the best out of the box. Some people "need" (or foolishly convince themselves) to spend $250 on earphones in order to enjoy their music collection. Others, likely 99.5% of the DAP owning population, can still enjoy their music when it is being played on a pair of bundled earbuds.

Anyhow, I'm sure this article was not written for the 0.5% of DAP owners out there, so move along audio nazis ;)

And if they really don't want to use the stock earphones, why not sell it on eBay? In that case a better quality in-ear would fetch more money back, too.

@TimL

"Consumers are not paying more for the above average headphones mentioned."

[citation needed]

"The manufacturers would not have dropped the DAPs MSRP even if they were not included."

The opposite, either that they could raise the price, or cut other features actually integral to the item you're buying is quite probable.

I have a Zune 80 and have to agree (somewhat) with the comments about them making a swishing noise while moving around. This was the first thing that I noticed when I got the Zune. It seems, though, that either from the wear of the earbuds or maybe me just getting used to it, I never notice the noise anymore.

I am certainly not the type of person to spend over $100 for a headphones but I certainly can't stand normal stock ones. Most people don't have carry around a backpack to contain a giant set of cans so the majority of them (myself included) choose to go with the earbuds.

One point that people seem to be missing is that when a company sells a DAP, they have to think about the market they are selling to. Average consumers want to buy their device, take it home, load their music on and start using it right away. Can you imagine the frustration of some Joe Consumer accidentally buying his $200-300 DAP and realizing that he has no way of hearing sound from it. Including the headphones is a necessity for the company. Making another SKU that doesn't include headphones would tend to add an extra cost from having to separate the product, changing the packaging, etc. This is most likely considered in board rooms and they decide that just spending a few pennies on some cheap earbuds works better. If the consumer chooses to upgrade, that is their decision.

i just wanna know, which one has a better sound quality and video quality the zen x-fi, or the a720?
thanks, any answers will be apreciated

Uh oh, here is Steve again worried that people buy ipods for their capacity.

Really matters when the screen and formats it can play suck compared to the iaudio A3, cannot record, or listen to the radio.

Aside from the UI, the ipods suck everywhere else bud. The reason why it succeeds is because they spend $50 of those extra dollars you pay for an ipod on advertising with stupid fake dancers every night on cable tv.

"Aside from the UI"

Wow. Talk about nearsightedness. A device essentially IS its UI. Its the portal between the user and the technology. If the UI sucks, the device sucks no matter how many obscure little used formats it can play.

Its hard to argue Microsoft doesn't have enough money to advertise the Zune. They have more money than Apple. They make more money than Apple. I have seen Zune commercials by the way. Maybe oh just maybe the market doesn't care about obscure format support? Is that a war crime?

Sony all the way man.. Ex buds sell like hot cakes in amazon and u get em free with the NWZ72x and 82X series. I am against zune and ipos for tying down the player to proprietary software and would never recommend either of them to anyone

Sony all the way man.. Ex buds sell like hot cakes in amazon and u get em free with the NWZ72x and 82X series. I am against zune and ipods for tying down the player to proprietary software and would never recommend either of them to anyone

IMHO, they include above average ear buds just to make the output sound quality of their MP3 Player a bit better compared to competitors, and it is a pity hardly anyone bothers or dares rather to invest in portable MP3 Player's hardware/software proper to make its sound comparable to a decent PC sound card. The aim should be HiFi-on-the-go kind of music as opposed to living room sound systems. It should be noted though that iPods have a mediocre sound quality and are popular simply because it is virtually impossible to find any other just as convenient portable music player which would at least offer a distinguishingly better sound quality or more powerful output. So, weather or not they include better ear buds, one thing remains clear that today’s portable music players market shows a growing want of truly superb sounding hand held music devices.

i have purchased about 10 mp3 players in the past 5 years. all of them are creative and sansa players. i try the ipod and really hate the proprietary software apple try to lock me head into. with that said, i ALWAYS bought another pair of headphone, usually from sony, jvc or panasonic, to be used with my mp3 players.
this should be no suprise to any audiophile out there.
like home stereo system where the speakers are the most important component.
i would say that THE MOST IMPORTANT COMPONENT FOR ANY MP3 PLAYER ARE THE HEADPHONES.